Bilag
7:
Renate
Sommer




Transskribering
 af
 interview
 med
 Renate
 Sommer,
 tysk
 medlem
 af
 Europa­Parlamentet
 for
 Christlich
 Demokratische
 Union
 Deutschlands,
 i
 Europa­Parlamentet
 medlem
 af
 EPP,
 den
 konservative
gruppe.
Interviewet
er
udført
den
16.
januar
2013.






CNC:
Cathrine
Nygaard
Christensen
(interviewer)
 RS:
Renate
Sommer
(respondent)



 


CNC:
Thank
 you
 so
 much
 for
 meeting
 me.
 I'm
 doing
 a
 master
 thesis
 about
 the
 political
 opinion
 on
 Turkey's
 EU
 accession
 particularly
 in
 relation
 to
 European
 politicians
 working
 among
 other
 European
 politicians.
And
so
to
start
of,
I
want
to
ask
you
a
quick
question
about
your
view
on
EU
as
collaboration.


Do
you
see
it
as
a
political
and
economic
collaboration
or
do
you
also
view
it
as
a
collaboration
of
nations
 based
on
our
common
history
and
values?





RS:
Yes,
of
course.
Well
first
of
all,
and
that
needs
to
be
underlined
now
a
days,
because
a
lot
of
people
 have
forgotten
it
already
is
that
the
EU
is
a
peace
project.
And
very
successful
in
that,
but
the
second
 pillar
is
of
course
nowadays
an
economic
one.
We
want
to
bring
wealth
to
all
Europeans
and
it's
the
 content
of
European
solidarity
between
member
states.
Of
course
we
are
sharing
the
same
culture
and
 that
is
underlined
in
the
Lisbon
treaty
but
that
doesn't
mean
we
are
an
exclusive
club.
The
boarders
of
 the
EU
as
the
whole
have
never
been
defined
so
it
is
an
open
project.






CNC:
So
what
is
a
European
country,
can
we
define
one
in
terms
of
culture
or…?





RS:
No.
You
can't.





CNC:
So
 as
 long
 as
 a
 country
 adheres
 to
 the
 Copenhagen
 Criteria
 and
 to
 our
 values
 laid
 down
 in
 the
 treaty?





RS:
 Yes,
 our
 common
 values
 listed
 in
 the
 Lisbon
 Treaty
 for
 the
 first
 time
 are
 the
 basis
 of
 our
 cooperation
in
the
EU.
And
the
Copenhagen
Criteria
are
very
different.






CNC:
I've
 also
 read
 some
 of
 your
 speeches
 in
 plenary
 and
 my
 perception
 is
 that
 you
 also
 believe
 that
 Turkey
could
join
the
EU
if
they
fulfil
all
the
criteria.






RS:
Yes,
I’m
convinced
if
Turkey
would
fulfil
all
the
criteria
and
if
Turkey
would
state
that
it
shares
our
 European
values,
it
could
become
a
member
of
the
EU.
But
the
problem
is
that
Turkey
doesn't
do.






CNC:
There
has
been
a
lot
of
reform
processes
in
Turkey,
how
do
you
perceive
the
reforms
of
Erdogan?
Do
 you
perceive
them
as
sincere
or
how
do
you
perceive
Erdogan
as
a
politician?





RS:
From
the
current
point
of
view,
not
just
me
but
the
whole
Parliament
is
more
and
more
in
doubt
 whether
 those
 reforms
 were
 sincere.
 And
 for
 years,
 Turkey
 has
 been
 stepping
 back.
 And
 that
 is
 the
 problem
 we
 are
 facing.
 Since
 the
 negotiations
 have
 been
 opened
 in
 2005
 there
 are
 back‐warded
 departments
inside
Turkey
and
that
brings
us
big
(incomprehensible).




 


CNC:
Yes
 and
 I
 read
 something
 you
 said
 in
 2005
 and
 that
 the
 promise
 of
 developing
 the
 southeastern
 region
is
just
an
illusion.
He
(Erdogan)
has
no
sincere
wishes
to
develop
this
region
and…





RS:
…And
obviously
I
was
right
because
nothing
happened.
The
South‐east
of
Turkey
has
never
been


part
of
the
EU
(incomprehensible)
of
the
country.
And
that
is
of
course
a
critical
situation
too.





CNC:
The
 German
 population
 has
 also
 been
 very
 sceptical
 about
 EU
 (mener:
 Tyrkiet)
 and
 of
 course
 Merkel.
Why
do
you
think
the
Germans
are
sceptical
about
Turkey
as
a
EU
member?
What
is
the
biggest
 problem
for
Turkey
in
relation
to
Germany?





RS:
One
of
the
problems
is
that
of
course
we
have
a
lot
of
people
living
in
Germany
with
Turkish
roots.


Quite
a
lot
of
them
have
a
German
passport
now.
But
what
the
German
citizens
see
is
that
the
majority
 of
those
people
are
not
very
well
integrated
into
the
German
society.
And
this
leads
to
the
fear
that
 Turkey
 as
 a
 whole
 will
 not
 be
 well
 integrated
 in
 the
 EU.
 And
 that
 is,
 I'm
 absolutely
 sure,
 the
 most
 important
reason
why
about
70%
of
the
German
society
are
against
an
accession
of
Turkey.
But
the
 problem
 is,
 my
 view
 on
 that
 as
 a
 politician,
 that
 those
 Turkish
 immigrants
 living,
 some
 of
 them
 for
 decades,
in
Germany
are
not
really
representatives
for
the
Turkish
society.
And..
but
what..
and
that
is
 not
 understood
 by
 the
 German
 citizens.
 And
 traditionally
 whenever
 Prime
 Minister
 Erdogan
 visits
 Germany,
 he
 tells
 his
 people,
 those
 with
 Turkish
 roots,
 not
 to
 assimilate,
 to
 remain
 Turkish.
 And
 nobody
 wants
 to
 assimilate
 them.
 We
 want
 to
 integrate
 them.
 And
 that
 forces
 fears
 in
 the
 German
 society
that
things
might
go
in
the
wrong
direction.






CNC:
So
these
concerns,
which
come
from
a
lot
of
member
states,
in
terms
of
culture
and
perhaps
also
 religion,
 do
 you
 think
 they
 have
 a
 place
 in
 the
 debate,
 or
 should
 you
 look
 away
 from
 the
 religious
 background
of
a
country?





RS:
From
my
point
of
view,
it
has
not
really
to
do
with
the
religion.
Because
freedom
of
religion
is
one
 of
the
most
important
pillars
of
the
EU.
Even
the
German
society
is
not
insisting
on
we
are
a
Christian
 club,
why
should
they?
We
are
very
tolerant;
the
problem
is
on
the
other
hand
that
more
and
more
 Muslims
are
intolerant
against
other
religions,
that's
written
on
different
piece
of
papers.
And
that
of
 course
 there
 is
 no
 religious
 freedom
 inside
 Turkey
 itself.
 And
 that
 is
 what
 I
 hear
 at
 home
 from
 my
 citizens.
They
don't
give
religious
freedom
to
other
religions.
Why
should
we
make
them
a
member?


But
there
is
in
general,
I'm
convinced,
no
intolerance
against
Muslims.
And
that..
and
the
main
religion
 has
nothing
to
do
with
our
debate
on
Turkey's
accession
to
the
EU.





CNC:
So
do
you
believe
that
a
country
with
a
Muslim
background
has
more
problems
developing
our
sort
 of
democracy
and
our
view
on
human
rights?





RS:
No
no
no,
it's
not
a
question
of
the
religion.
It's
a
question
of
the
history.
Turkey
is
one
of
those
 neighbouring
countries
that
doesn’t
share
the
European
history.
We
had
development
in
out
society
 for
hundreds
of
years,
and
that
is
something
that
did
not
take
place
in
Turkey.
And
that
is
the
reason
 why
a
very
high
percentage
of
the
Turkish
society
and
of
course
Turkish
politicians
too
don't
really
 understand
 what
 we
 mean
 by
 saying
 we
 want
 democracy,
 we
 want
 you
 to
 fulfil
 the
 Copenhagen
 Criteria,
that
means
civil
liberties
and
civil
rights.
Because,
as
I
said;
in
Europe,
in
European
member
 states,
this
needed
hundreds
of
years
to
develop
and
it
is
not
easy
to
force
a
country
that
doesn't
have
 these
experiences
to
change
itself....






CNC:
...that
quickly?





RS:
Yes,
that
quickly,
in
some
years.
It
need
longer.
And
even
the
Turks
say
"we
need
to
change
in
our
 minds".
It
takes
more
than
some
years,
it
takes
some
generations.






CNC:
Cause
I
guess,
we
in
Europe
have
also
seen
a
very
big
development
in
our
religion
and
church,
which
 they
probably
haven't
seen
in
the
same
way
in
Turkey?





RS:
Yes,
and
we
have
the
French
revolution
and
the
citizenship
developed
on
this
background.
And
in


Turkey
they
had
the
sultans.
And
that's
different.





CNC:
Yes,
because
you
developed
your
secular
country
through
revolution,
through
the
public,
whereas
 the
Turkish
community,
the
secular
was
granted
from
the
state,
from
Atatürk.
Do
you
see
this
as
a
big
 problem,
the
way
the
secular
society
has
been
created?





RS:
 Yes,
 yes.
 Because
 it's
 not
 really
 rooted
 within
 society,
 not
 in
 the
 whole
 society.
 They
 are
 still
 working
 on
 it,
 is
 my
 impression.
 And
 the
 state
 founder,
 Atatürk,
 he
 wanted
 his
 whole
 country
 to
 become
European
at
once.
From
one
minute
to
the
other.
And
that
was
of
course
not
possible
and
that
 happened
quite
a
lot
of
years
ago.
And
he
told
them
to
wear
different
clothes,
to
use
Arabic
numbers
 and
different
fonts.
It's
a
massive
change
by
force,
state
force,
and
this
did
not
really
function
very
fast
 and
properly.
And
nowadays
we
know
that
you
have
to
convince
people,
you
need
to
take
them
with
 you
in
politics.





CNC:
Yes,
that
it
has
to
be
not
a
state
project
but
a
people's
project
so
to
say?





RS:
Yes.





CNC:
When
you
look
at
some
of
the
things
that
goes
on
in
Turkey,
and
Turkey's
relations
to
the
rest
of
the
 world
you
sometimes,
even
though
 Turkey
says
that
they
are
committed
to
the
EU
and
out
values,
you
 sometimes
see
some
things
in
politics
that
points
in
the
other
direction.
For
instance,
their
membership
of
 OIC
and
also,
I'm
sure
you
remember,
the
Muhammad
crisis.
And
back
then
the
Turkish
ambassador
to
 Denmark
was
one
of
the
ambassadors
to
sign
the
letter
to
our
Prime
Minister
to
ask
him
to
take
action
on
 this
subject.
How
do
you
see
these
events,
do
you
see
Turkey
being
a
two­faced
country?






RS:
It's
not
the
country;
it's
the
governing
party
and
the
Prime
Minister.
There's
a
difference
between
 society
and
the
governing
politicians.
Erdogan
has
obviously
a
hidden
agenda
and
this
becomes
more
 and
 more
 clear.
 And
 his
 problem,
 and
 I
 hope
 this
 will
 be
 a
 growing
 problem,
 is
 that
 society
 has
 developed
more
and
more
since
Turkey
became
a
candidate
country
to
the
EU.
And
the
society,
not
the
 whole
 society,
 is
 willing
 to
 accept
 what
 he
 wants
 to
 create.
 And
 this
 is
 neccesary
 but
 the
 Turkish
 society
in
the
end
stops
Erdogan's
efforts
to
create
a
more
Islamic/islamistic
state.
But
although
this
 will
not
be
a..
in
German
it
is
a
Godesstadt,
a
state
of
God,
this
will
not
happen,
not
even
under
Erdogan
 because
the
Turkish
Islam
has
always
been
different
than
the
Islam
in
the
other
Islamic
countries.
It
 was
always
more
political
Islam.
But
Erdogan
is
very
conservative
and
he
wants
to
force
the
Turkish
 society
to
become
conservative
again.
And
conservative
in
that
part
has
to
do
more
with
religion
than
 with
politics.






CNC:
So
of
course
we
have
been
talking
about
the
Copenhagen
Criteria
and
the
criteria
laid
down
in
the
 Treaty.
Official
criteria.
Do
you
see
some
unofficial
criteria
as
well?
Here
I'm
talking
about
the
fact
that
 many
political
leaders
seem
to
believe
that
their
culture
is
just
too
different.
Is
culture
really
a
criterion
 for
joining
EU?





RS:
First
of
all,
of
course
the
culture
is
different,
because
the
culture
of
a
society
is
always
growing
on
 the
 basis
 of
 the
 main
 religion.
 And
 in
 this
 different
 culture,
 it
 is
 totally
 different
 from
 the
 European
 culture;
 there
 are
 influences
 of
 course.
 But
 all
 this
 is
 no
 reason
 to
 say
 no
 to
 Turkey.
 We
 are
 very
 tolerant
and
we
want
them
to
be
tolerant
too.
And
of
course
we
have
other
third
countries
that
shall
 become
 members
 in
 the
 future
 from
 the
 Balkans
 that
 have
 is
 Islamic
 background
 too.
 So
 this
 underlines
 that
 different
 main
 religion
 and
 because
 of
 that
 different
 cultures
 are
 no
 reasons
 not
 to
 accept
a
new
member
state.





CNC:
If
you
read
the
Commission's
progress
reports
from
the
last
years,
you
always
see
the
issue
of
human
 rights
being
underlined;
freedom
of
religion,
freedom
of
speech,
freedom
of
press.
Will
Turkey
ever
move


on
these
reforms?
How
do
you
se
the
future?
And
why
is
it
so
difficult
for
them
to
move
on
these
exact
 reforms?





RS:
Because
they
don't
want
to.
What
I
hear,
since
I'm
a
member
of
the
D‐TR
of
Turkey
since
1999,
for
 a
 long
 time,
 and
 what
 I
 hear
 from
 the
 beginning,
 from
 Turks,
 from
 Turkish
 colleagues,
 is
 that
 not
 Turkey
 has
 to
 change
 to
 become
 a
 member,
 but
 that
 the
 EU
 has
 to
 change.
 Because
 Turkey
 is
 so
 important
for
the
EU
that
the
EU
has
to
change
to
be
prepared
to
make
Turkey
a
member
as
it
is.
And
 that
is
not
acceptable,
because
they
don't
share
our
values.






CNC:
The
 process
 of
 Turkey
 has
 been
 very
 long
 now,
 do
 you
 believe
 that
 the
 country
 has
 been
 treated
 fairly?






RS:
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
They
are
always
moaning
"you're
treating
us
unfair,
your
building
up
more
 and
more
obstacles,
you
don't
treat
us
as
other
candidate
countries".
But
that
is
simply
not
true.
It's
 just
the
other
way
around,
exactly
the
other
way
around.
But
with
a
view
on
the
last
years
and
a
lot
of
 years
 has
 past
 by
 since
 2005
 already,
 I
 must
 say
 that
 I
 don't
 believe
 Turkey
 will
 become
 a
 member
 during
the
next
decades.
And
I
really
do
hope
that
the
government
will
change
sometime.






CNC:
So
how
do
you
perceive
Erdogan.
He
wants
to
change
the
constitution,
make
himself
president
and
 move
some
powers
with
the
presidency?





RS:
Of
course
that
is
another
critical
situation,
we
will
see
about
that.
The
impression
is
that
Erdogan
 feels
as
a
kind
of
prophet;
"I'm
a
prophet
and
I
will
bring
Turkey
back
to
the
glory
days
of
the
past".


And
of
course
from
the
democratic
point
of
view,
that's
difficult.






CNC:
So
the
country
is
in
some
way
moving
away
from
the
Turkish
values,
sorry,
the
European
values?





RS:
It
has
already
moved
away
although
the
Turkish
society
is
not
supporting
that.
But
this
is
the
move
 of
the
government
and
I'm
convinced
that
if
the
Turkish
society
would
have
the
chance
to
change
the
 situation
 (incomprehensible)
 but
 they
 don't
 have
 the
 chance.
 And
 it's
 always
 surprising
 how
 many
 votes
the
AKP
collects.
But
we
have
long
known
that
they're
buying
votes.
They
give
presents
to
the
 people
and
tell
them
"this
is
for
you
and
because
we
give
you
this
you
have
to
vote
for
us
‐
and
they
 do".






CNC:
I've
 also
 heard
 from
 a
 Danish
 journalists,
 who
 has
 been
 travelling
 a
 lot
 in
 Turkey
 that
 they
 will
 promise
some
cities
money
for
roads,
infrastructure
if
they
will
vote
like
this
and
this,
so
there
are
still
a
 lot
of
corruption.





RS:
Of
course.
And
they
promise
families,
promise
to
pay
for
the
university
of
their
children.
They
give
 them
something
to
eat
or
a
washing
machine,
computer.





CNC:
So
the
Turkish
people
have
become
hostages
in
this
political
situation?





RS:
Not
all,
but
quite
a
lot.
And
there
were
plenty
events,
because
it
was
written
in
the
media
some
 years
 ago
 that
 the
 AKP
 party
 gave
 washing
 machines
 to
 families
 in
 a
 village
 where
 they
 had
 no
 electricity.
It
was
quite
funny.
It
wasn't
very
organised,
I'm
afraid.
But
in
the
end
they
made
it
public
 but
we
have
known
for
long.
The
question
is;
where
does
the
money
come
from?
But
that
is
a
different
 question.






CNC:
Yeah
of
course.
So
in
order
for
Turkey
to
move
more
towards
EU,
you
will
need
to
see
some
sort
of,
 not
a
revolution
from
the
public
but
some
more
demands
from
the
public?





RS:
Yes,
and
change
in
the
government.
Unless
that
takes
place,
nothing
will
change
I'm
afraid
in
the
 country.
Of
course
we're
trying
quite
a
lot
of
things
to
bring
pressure
to
the
Turkish
government
to
 (get
them
to
respect)
freedom
of
speech,
freedom
of
expression,
press
freedom,
religious
freedom
and
 so
on.
But
whenever
we
mention
something
like
that,
they
become
very
angry,
and
tell
the
EU
to
"shut
 up,
this
is
a
purely
Turkish
affair,
the
EU
has
nothing
to
do
with
it".
And
that
shows
again
that
they
 really
do
not
understand
why
we
ask
them
to
change
the
situation.





CNC:
But
you
believe
it's
not
because
of
their
religion
but
because
of
their
history
of
nationalism
and...





RS:
Yes,
yes.
And
it's
national
pride
that
is
fixed
in
the
constitution,
by
Atatürk
and
that
national
pride
 is
one
of
the
main
reasons
that
the
Cyprus
problem
can't
be
solved.
And
the
Armenian
genocide
cannot
 be
accepted
as
such.
That
has
to
do
with
this
national
pride.
Very
big
problem.





CNC:
I
guess
that's
something
that's
very
difficult
to
change?






RS:
Yes
it
is!





CNC:
Both
among
government
and
citizens?






RS:
Yes.
Once
a
Turk,
always
a
Turk.
Never
forget
that
you
are
Turkish.
Be
proud
of
your
country.
In
 general
there
is
nothing
to
say
against
that,
but
that
national
pride
goes
to
far.
Because
it
allows
no
 criticism
and
in
the
end
it
prohibits
a
membership
of
Turkey
because
when
you
become
a
member
of
 the
EU
you
have
to
give
up
quite
a
low
of
sovereign
rights.
You
have
to
give
it
to
the
European
level.


And
that
in
the
end
should
be
impossible
for
Turkey.
When
the
constitution
remains
on
this
point
as
it
 is
now
I'm
afraid
it
will
be.






CNC:
Well,
thank
you
so
much
for
you
time,
do
you
have
anything
you
want
to
add?





RS:
It's
always
the
same.
It
becomes
more
and
more
boring
to
talk
to
Turkey
(laughing).
You
need
to
be
 very
patient.
We
are
doing
the
work
on
behalf
of
the
Turkish
society,
the
people.
We
are
fighting
for
 human
rights
and
of
course
it's
important
for
the
EU
itself
to
bring
stability
to
neighbouring
countries
 and
stability
can
only,
in
our
experience,
be
founded
on
democracy.
It's
the
reason
why
we
really
take
 care
 of
 Turkey.
 But
 we
 don't
 really
 need
 a
 membership
 of
 Turkey
 very
 soon,
 it
 would
 be
 good
 for
 Turkey
itself
but
we
had
this
custom’s
union
for
nearly
20
years
now
and
it
works
better
and
better
 and
brings
benefits
to
both
sides
and
we
could
do
some
more
cooperation
step
by
step
so
that
in
the
 end
it
could
lead
to
membership
‐
or
even
not
but
a
very
special
neighbourhood
relation
I'm
convinced
 would
be
the
better
solution.






CNC:
Sorry?
A...





RS:
A
very
special
and
close
neighbourhood
collaboration
would
be
for
the
benefits
of
the
two
sides
at
 the
moment
because
it's
really
impossible
to
make
Turkey
a
member.
And
it
would
help
Turkey
quite
a
 lot
to
work
more
together
with
EU
probably
in
some
problems.
Depending
on
negotiations,
how
far
 this
would
go
and
what
political
field;
probably
environment
it
would
be
possible
and
transport.
And
 (incomprehensible).
So
this
could
lead
step
by
step…





CNC:
So
it's
still
important
to
keep
Turkey
close
to
the
EU
for
the
sake
of
the
citizens?





RS:
Absolutely,
absolutely!





CNC:
What
will
happen
to
the
citizens
if
Turkey
chooses
to
turn
away
from
the
EU?





RS:
I
think
it
would
be
very
negative
for
citizens
because
then
Erdogan,
I'm
convinced,
would
try
to
 build
up
more
and
more
a
kind
of
dictatorship.





In document ”Tyrkiet kan da godt blive medlem, men…” (Sider 126-132)