Bilag
4:
Norbert
Neuser




Transkribering
 af
 interview
 med
 Norbert
 Neuser,
 tysk
 medlem
 af
 Europa­Parlamentet
 for
 Sozialdemokratische
 Partei
 Deutschland,
 i
 Europa­Parlamentet
 medlem
 af
 S&D,
 den
 socialdemokratiske
gruppe.
Interviewet
er
udført
den
9.
januar
2013.






CNC:
Cathrine
Nygaard
Christensen
(interviewer)
 NN:
Norbert
Neuser
(respondent)



 


CNC:
If
 I
 may
 start
 by
 asking
 you
 how
 do
 you
 in
 general
 perceive
 the
 EU
 as
 a
 collaboration;
 do
 you
 perceive
 it
 as
 a
 political
 collaboration
 based
 on
 secular
 political
 values
 or
 do
 you
 see
 a
 collaboration
 based
on
a
common
identity,
cultural
values
and
such?





NN:
I
would
say
that
there
are
common
values
and
of
cause
they
are
based
on
Christian
tradition
and
 this
is
a
problem
in
working
together
with
Turkey.
And
for
a
lot
of
people.
Otherwise,
Europe
is
not
 only
based
on
Christian
culture
but
the
main
is
Christian
culture.
There
is
Jewish,
a
little
bit
Muslim,
 the
Balkan
area
and
centuries
ago
in
Spain,
but
many
people
in
Europe
think
that
there
is
a
common
 value
based
on
Christian
culture
and
Christian
experience
and
this
makes
a
problem.





CNC:
So
do
you
believe
that
for
a
country
to
be
European
it
must
have
these
values?





NN:
No
that's
not
necessary.
We
have
to
step
forward
but
you
have
to
be
supported
by
the
people
and
 you
have
to
make
clear
that
it
is
not
necessary
to
have
these
values,
because
we
have
other
important
 values.





CNC:
So
do
you
believe,
if
Turkey
fulfills
these
official
criteria,
they
should
become
a
member
of
the
EU?





NN:
Not
yet.
But
there
is
big
progress
on
the
other
side
and
it
is
a
difficult
situation
because
we
have
 now
been
in
negotiations
for
15
years,
and
it
is
not
good
for
Turkey
its
just
like
a
dog;
you
show
this
 dog
a
sausage
and
the
dog
can
not
get.
So
I
don't
know
how
to
act
but
only
to
say
that
we
negotiate
and
 we
negotiate,
and
you
should
do
this
and
that,
I
think
that
is
not
enough.
We
have
to
build
kind
of
other
 bridges,
Turkey
is
a
special
case,
it's
a
very
big
country.





CNC:
Is
that
a
big
factor
in
you
view
of
Turkey?
That
it
is
such
a
big
country?





NN:
 Yeah,
 of
 course,
 of
 course.
 It
 would
 be
 in
 some
 years
 the
 biggest
 member
 state,
 more
 than
 80
 million
 inhabitant.
 On
 the
 other
 side
 it's
 important
 to
 have
 Turkey
 at
 our
 side,
 if
 you
 see
 the
 whole
 influence
 in
 the
 area
 around
 Turkey.
 We
 work
 together
 in
 NATO,
 we
 work
 together
 in..
 not
 the
 European
Council...





CNC:
Council
of
Europe
 


NN:
Yes.
Even
longer
than
Germany,
a
bit
longer
than
the
Germans.





CNC:
So
your
main
arguments
for
keeping
up
negotiations
with
Turkey
are
security
reasons?
Economic?





NN:
There
are
a
lot
of
reasons.
For
me,
personally,
it
is
not
important
if
it's
a
big
country
or
not
such
a
 big
country.
It
is
important
that
our
values
can
be
broad..
no..
can
be
accepted
by
other
countries.
It
 would
 be
 great
 to
 have
 other
 countries
 on
 the
 same
 fundament
 as
 the
 European
 constitution.
 The
 same
values;
Freedom,
press
freedom,
equality.





CNC:
And
this
is
something,
when
you
read
the
progress
reports
from
the
Commission
this
is
exactly
what
 they
say
every
year,
that
there
is
a
problem
with
what
we
would
call
basic
human
rights,
like
freedom
of
 speech,
expression,
press
­
why
do
you
think
it
is
so
difficult
for
Turkey
to
reform
on
this
area?





NN:
I
thinks
the
country
is
still
strong
related
to
old
traditions
and
Turkey
it
self
I
would
say
is
divided
 in
two
big
parts.
One
is
very
strongly
European
orientated
and
the
other
one
is
still
very
traditional.





CNC:
So
there
are
some
regional
differences
in
the
country?





NN:
 Yes,
 absolutely.
 So
 for
 me,
 Istanbul,
 having
 been
 several
 times
 there,
 it's
 a
 really
 European
 city.


And
if
you
go
to
rural
areas
it
is
even
back
in
the
Middle
Ages
sometimes.






CNC:
So
that
is
one
of
the
reasons
why
you
think
it
would
be
difficult
to
implement
these...





NN:
And
it's
even
difficult
for
the
Turkish
government.






CNC:
What
 is
 your
 opinion
 on
 Erdogan?
 Are
 his
 reforms
 genuine
 or
 do
 you
 believe
 he
 tries
 to
 pull
 the
 country
in
a
more
Islamic
direction?





NN:
Puh…
It
seams
as
though
he
is
working
in
both
directions.
He
tries
to
establish
traditional
things
 having
his
voters
in
mind,
and
he
knows
there
are
a
lot
of
economic
reason
to
be
open,
to
be
western.


And
he
has
to
balance
that
and
sometimes
he
is
more
on
one
side,
sometimes
more
on
the
other
side.






CNC:
Cause
 their
 official
 opinion
 is
 still
 that
 they
 want
 a
 full
 membership
 and
 that
 they
 are
 working
 towards
 EU
 and
 EU
 values.
 And
 then
 on
 the
 other
 hand
 sometimes,
 especially
 critics
 say
 that
 Erdogan
 sometimes
 politically
 tries
 to
 pull
 in
 the
 other
 directions.
 For
 instance,
 he
 has
 been
 talking
 about
 reintroducing
death
penalty…






NN:
These
are
the
absolutely
wrong
signals.






CNC:
And
his
stricter
rules
on
abortion,
which
of
course
is
not
an
EU
area.
But
it
does
somehow
move
in
a
 conservative
direction?





NN:
And
then
I
think
if
you
see
the
surrounding
countries
in
the
north
and
east
and
south
of
Turkey,
 there
 are
 more
 and
 more
 politicians
 in
 Turkey
 who
 are
 trying
 to
 bring
 Turkey
 in
 their
 former
 role
 having
the
whole
area
a
little
bit
under
control.





CNC:
So
do
you
also
think
a
problem
for
Turkey
would
be
to
let
go
f
the
control
they
have
in
this
areas?





NN:
Yes,
there
are
big
players
in
this
area.





CNC:
So
it
would
be
somehow
a
problem
for
them
to
join
EU,
if
they
would
lose
influence
in
the
area?





NN:
No
not
lose
influence
but
they
are
not
that
independent
as
they
are
now.
Now
they
can
do
their
 foreign
policy
as
they
want,
and
being
a
member
of
EU
they
are
involved
in
European
politics.





CNC:
So
they
will
be
somehow
limited?





NN:
Yes.





CNC:
As
 you
 probably
 know,
 the
 public
 opinion
 on
 Turkey
 is
 in
 general
 very
 negative,
 in
 Germany
 and


Denmark
as
well,
what
do
you
think
is
the
main
concern
of
the
population
in
relation
to
Turkey?





NN:
 First
 I
 would
 say
 that
 it
 is
 not
 only
 on
 Turkey.
 People
 are
 tired
 about
 discussions
 to
 have
 enlargements
of
Europe.
27
member
states
and
28
with
Croatia,
"that's
now
enough,
lets
stop
it
and
 organize
it,
we
have
problems".
So
that
is
not
only
a
problem
of
Turkey
but
especially
because
Turkey
 is
 a
 big
 country.
 And
 the
 other
 thing
 is
 that
 I
 would
 say
 that
 normal
 people
 are
 a
 little
 bit
 afraid
 of
 having
 too
 many
 foreign
 people
 in
 Europe.
 So
 for
 Danish
 People
 or
 German
 people
 someone
 from
 Austria,
Italy
and
Spain
are
not
foreign
members
as
someone
from
Turkey.
The
have
other
traditions
 and
then
again
the
whole
thing
comes
with
religion,
tradition
and
so
on.






CNC:
And
 I
 think
 Germany
 as
 well
 as
 Denmark
 has
 had
 some
 problems
 with
 integration
 of
 especially
 Muslim
citizens?





NN:
 Problems
 there,
 where
 we
 failed
 in
 our
 integration
 politics
 and
 where
 our
 big
 big
 Turkish
 communities.
Otherwise,
in
my
region
there's
not
a
single
problem
because
in
small
villages
and
small
 towns,
 everybody
 knows
 each
 other,
 we
 all
 know
 that
 Turkish
 neighbor
 are
 busy
 and
 good
 businessmen.
 It's
 not
 a
 problem.
 Where
 there
 nearly
 closed
 communities
 [are
 where
 you
 see
 bad
 integration]





CNC:
And
I
guess
you
see
them
pretty
much
all
over
Europe
these
closed
communities?





NN:

Yes,
I
would
say
it's
especially
in
Berlin
with
big
communities,
Cologne,
Frankfurt.





CNC:
So
in
the
debate,
there
has
been
a
lot
of
talk
about
culture
and
religion
being
some
of
the
reasons
 why
it
would
be
difficult
to
integrate
Turkey
into
the
EU





NN:
That
is
what
a
lot
of
people
think
and
feel
but
in
the
discussion
of
politics
we
are
often
a
little
bit
 shy
and
the
we
discuss
the
problem
Cyprus,
of
course
it's
a
problem.
And
there
would
be
no
agreement
 with
Cyprus
ore
Greece.
But
this
is
only
one
of
a
lot
of
arguments.






CNC:
But
do
you
believe
that
a
countries
religion
has
a
place
in
the
debate?
Is
it
okay
to
debate
religion
 when
you
debate
Turkey
or
should
you
rather
focus
on
other
areas?





NN:
It's
not
a
question
if
it
is
wrong
or
right,
it
is
part
of
the
question.
So
we
cannot
put
these
questions
 away
and
we
cannot
discuss
in
a
high
sophisticated
level.
We
can
do
it
and
we
are
clear
but
you
need
 to
have
the
support
of
normal
people.






CNC:
So
do
you
believe
that
any
country
has
the
possibility
to
develop
our
type
of
democracy
or
do
you
 think
there
is
a
limit
to
how
much
a
Muslim
society
can
develop
and
can
accept
our
version
of
human
 rights?





NN:
I
think
it
is
possible.
It
must
be
possible.
We
do
not
make
a
lot
of
differences
within
the
Muslim
 communities;
there
are
the
fundamentalist
and
the
very
liberals.
Look
to
the
Christian
churches.
Even
 there
we
have
some
kind
of
fundamentalism.





CNC:
Definitely.
 We
 have
 also
 spent
 thousands
 of
 years
 developing
 our
 Christianity
 and
 Turkey
 as
 a
 secular
state
is
not
very
old.
So
they
haven't
had
much
chance,
but
is
it
possible
that
they
will
move
in
our
 direction?





NN:
I'm
quite
sure.
We
have
to
move
towards
each
other.





CNC:
Do
you
think
that
the
EU
has
been
too
slow
in
the
process
of
Turkey?
Have
they
done
too
little
about


the
accession?





NN:
Perhaps
some
years
ago.
When
it
was
perhaps
easier.
But
I
would
say
that
the
last
several
years
 they
did
not
enough
and
especially
when
the
economic
crisis
started.
This
destroys
more
and
more
the
 opportunity
to
negotiate
in
a
good
way.
But
if
you
look
at
the
issue
of
energy,
everybody
knows
that
 we
 need
 these
 countries
 including
 Turkey
 around
 Iran,
 Iraq,
 Azerbaijan,
 and
 so
 on
 to
 be
 a
 little
 bit
 independent
from
Russia.
This
is
a
key
issue
for
Turkey,
to
show
how
important
they
are
for
us.






CNC:
Even
though
Turkey
has
committed
itself
to
the
EU
and
says
that
they
really
want
to
be
a
member,
 there
 has
 been
 some
 incidents
 that
 shows
 that
 Islam
 is
 still
 very
 important
 in
 political
 context.
 For
 instance,
 the
 Mohammed
 drawings
 in
 2005.
 The
 Turkish
 ambassador
 in
 Denmark
 was
 one
 of
 the
 co­

signers
of
a
letter
sent
to
the
Danish
prime
minister,
asking
him
to
have
a
meeting
with
them
and
to
try
 and
take
action
on
these
issues.
How
do
you
perceive
that
situation?
Isn't
it
some
sort
of
clash
of
values?





NN:
Yeah,
but
I
think
we
come
back
to
my
point
when
I
mentioned
that
the
responsible
politicians
in
 Turkey
try
to
be
balanced.
They
need
to
be
European
orientated
and
at
the
same
time
they
need
to
 look
at
what
is
going
on
at
home.
So
sometimes
they
overreact,
I
would
say,
as
in
this
case.
Even
in
 these
 small
 cases
 you
 can
 see
 in
 which
 way
 the
 direction
 is
 going.
 And
 this
 is
 an
 absolutely
 wrong
 direction.
They
do
not
share
this
value
of
free
press.






CNC:
They
 say
 that
 they
 do
 share
 the
 same
 values
 as
 we
 do,
 freedom
 of
 press,
 freedom
 of
 speech,
 but
 doesn't
these
examples
show,
that
we
perceive
these
values
very
differently?





NN:
 Of
 course
 there
 are
 differences.
 If
 you
 look
 to
 Italy
 and
 free
 press
 and
 if
 you
 look
 to
 other
 European
countries,
there
are
even
now,
within
the
member
states,
big
differences.






CNC:
Definitely.
But
in
Turkey,
I
would
say,
the
freedom
of
speech
is
related
to
religion
and
also
with
the
 state?





NN:
 Yeah.
 For
 me
 it
 is
 always
 a
 little
 bit
 unbelievable,
 I
 visited
 some
 schools
 in
 Turkey
 and
 they
 educate
really
really
free
without
the
influence
of
religion,
it's
forbidden.
On
one
side,
so
school
is
free
 of
all
these
things.
On
the
other
side,
there's
still
or
perhaps
even
more
influence
from
the
religious
 side.





CNC:
Turkey
say
that
they
are
a
secular
country
and
in…





NN:
In
school
more
than
Germany.





CNC:
Yes.
 Maybe
 like
 France
 with
 the
 way
 the
 state
 is
 build
 in
 relation
 to
 this.
 I
 guess
 there
 is
 a
 lot
 of
 religion
in
society
and
still
this
is
a
big
part
of
the
Turkish
Identity,
would
you
say
that,
to
be
a
Muslim
 rather
than
to
be
Turkish?





NN:
But
less
and
less.
I
think
if
they
are
abroad,
they
feel
closer
together
than
at
home.
Abroad
it's
a
 kind
of
identity.






CNC:
So
you
believe
the
Muslim
identity
is
bigger
outside?






NN:
Yes.





CNC:
Do
 you
 think,
 that
 when
 we
 talk
 about
 the
 official
 criteria,
 the
 Copenhagen
 criteria
 and
 the
 adhesion
 to
 values,
 do
 you
 thinks
 there
 are
 some
 unofficial
 criteria
 as
 well
 in
 relation
 to
 this
 cultural
 aspect?






NN:
We
have
the
official
ones.
In
the
discussion
and
in
the
interpretation
of
these
things
people
have
it
 in
mind.






CNC:
So
we
will
always
create
some
unofficial...





NN:
It's
not
always
black
and
white.
You
have
the
criteria,
clearly,
but
between
all
these
things
there
 are
the
influence
on
decisions.






CNC:
So
I
guess
that
maybe
this
is
also
a
confirmation
that
the
EU
is
also
a
value­based
community.
We
 can't
just
make
it
black
and
white
in
politic
and
economic
criteria.
There
is
something
more?





NN:
I
think
it
is
important
for
decision
makers.






CNC:
Because
they
need
the
backup
of
their
population?





NN:
Well,
I
for
an
example
see
the
criteria
and
they
are
very
clear.
But
nevertheless,
there
is
room
for
 interpretation.






CNC:
If
you
debate
this
with
your
colleagues
from
S&D,
do
you
see
many
different
opinions
or
do
you
en
 general
agree
on
these
issues?





NN:
Our
position
in
Germany
as
social
democrats
are
clear;
we
want
to
have
Turkey
on
board,
we
want
 to
have
fair
negotiations,
but
I
feel
a
lot
of
our
members
are
very
happy
with
the
actual
situation.
It's
 not
such
a
big
issue.
When
I
was
campaigning
three
years
ago,
four
years
ago,
it
was
a
stronger
issue
 than
 now.
 Because,
 for
 a
 lot
 of
 people,
 it
 is
 clear
 that
 they
 do
 not
 fulfill
 the
 criteria,
 that
 it
 is
 not
 possible
 for
 Turkey
 because
 of
 Cyprus
 and
 other
 things
 to
 become
 a
 member
 soon.
 So
 they
 put
 it
 a
 little
bit
away.






CNC:
Yes,
it
is
not
a
hot
topic
any
more?





NN:
No
it
is
comfortable.





CNC:
Is
that
dangerous
to
put
aside
Turkey?
Will
they
move
further
away
from
us?





NN:
At
first
it's
comfortable.
But
in
the
longer
term
it
is
not.
It
does
not
show
a
lot
of
responsibility.
So
I
 think
there
will
be
power
coming
from
the
economic
side,
so
it
is
necessary
to
work
closer
together,
to
 make
agreement,
to
open
Turkey,
to
organize
it
so
that
Turkey
and
Europe
can
come
closer
together.






CNC:
Do
 you
 think
 Turkey
 has
 been
 treated
 fairly
 in
 the
 accession
 process?
 Cause
 I
 have
 read
 some
 articles
 by
 researchers
 saying
 that
 some
 other
 EU
 countries
 have
 become
 members
 of
 the
 EU
 and
 the
 Commission
had
argued
that
even
though
they
lacked
some
of
the
human
rights
it
was
better
to
include
 them
 to
 promote
 this
 democracy
 and
 with
 Turkey
 it
 seems
 like
 the
 argumentation
 is
 the
 other
 way
 around.






NN:
I
fully
agree.
E.g.
Croatia.
They
do
not
fulfill
all
the
criteria
of
Copenhagen
but
nevertheless
there
 was
 a
 majority
 saying
 okay.
 But
 Croatia
 is
 a
 small
 county.
 So
 they
 say
 okay.
 It's
 not
 the
 same
 as
 80
 million.






CNC:
So
yes,
it
is
a
big
issue
that
it
is
a
big
country.
And
perhaps
also
that
it
is
a
Muslim
country?





NN:
 One
 member,
 who
 has
 been
 very
 long
 in
 the
 European
 Parliament,
 said
 to
 me:
 "The
 German


delegation
is
the
biggest
one,
but
when
Turkey
is
coming
we
will
have
the
same
level.
Imagine!".
That's
 the
democracy.





CNC:
Yeah,
 that's
 the
 way
 we
 build
 the
 system.
 So
 you
 think
 politicians,
 also
 here
 in
 the
 European
 Parliament,
are
having
trouble
coping
with
the
fact
that
there
are
going
to
be
so
many....





NN:
Of
course,
of
course.






CNC:
Do
you
want
to
add
anything?





NN:
Yes,
perhaps
one
thing
in
the
discussion
about
Greece.
When
we
discuss
about
economic
crisis
in
 Greece,
 there
 are
 only
 some
 single
 voices
 saying
 something
 about
 the
 military
 situation.
 And
 it
 is
 ridiculous
that
Greece
has
so
much
military.
They
spend
so
much
[money]
for
military
reasons
because
 of
Turkey.
They
are
both
member
of
NATO.
it's
ridiculous.
This
would
be
a
great
chance
to
show
both
 countries
to
go
down
on
this.
Bring
the
money
to
other
fields.





CNC:
Do
you
think
there
is
a
solution
for
Greece
and
Turkey
in
the
nearest
future?






NN:
There
has
to
be.
It's
absolutely
strange
that
Greece
has
the
most
tanks
in
Europe.





CNC:
Really?





NN:
Yes,
with
a
lot
of
islands
the
have
the
most
tanks.
In
Germany
it
is
not
a
big
discussion,
in
France
it
 is
not
a
big
discussion,
because
we
earn
a
lot
of
money
by
this.
It's
not
really
a
Turkish
issue





CNC:
But
of
course
its
part
of
the
story
about
politics
and
Turkey.
Thank
you
so
much
for
your
time.





 
 


In document ”Tyrkiet kan da godt blive medlem, men…” (Sider 105-111)