Bilag
5:
Michael
Cashman

the
politicians
should
get
down
to
doing
the
job
they
are
elected
to
do,
which
is
to
solve
the
problems
 and
not
create
the
divisions
and
more
problems.






CNC:
Now
 you
 mentioned
 domestic
 politics
 in
 different
 EU
 countries,
 It's
 no
 secret
 that
 Turkey
 is
 an
 unpopular
 candidate
 country
 among
 citizens,
 what
 do
 you
 think
 is
 the
 main
 concern
 among
 citizens?


Have
politicians
created
this
concern
or
is
there
a
genuine
reason
to
be
worried?





MC:
 I
 think
 in
 general
 there
 is
 concern
 about
 what
 Europe
 can
 currently
 do.
 But
 I
 have
 to
 say,
 the
 media
 and
 some
 politicians
 ‐
 particularly
 on
 the
 right,
 have
 portrait
 each
 wave
 of
 enlargement
 as
 a
 threat
to
our
identity.
I
remember
the
UK
said,
the
press
said,
that
we
were
going
to
be
flooded
with
 Spanish
waiters
when
Spain
was
going
to
come
in.
If
only
we
were,
because
the
level
in
standard
of
 service
 in
 restaurants
 would
 have
 gone
 up
 over
 night.
 What
 you
 see
 with
 enlargement
 is
 an
 initial
 influx
 and
 then
 a
 balance.
 And
 people
 always
 want
 to
 return
 back
 to
 the
 countries
 where
 they
 can
 celebrate
their
own
culture
and
more
importantly;
speak
their
own
language
and
be
wanted.
So
I
think
 there's
been
a
demonization
of
the
threat
and
each
wave
of
enlargement
and
the
fact
that
they
present
 Turks
as
being
perhaps
alien
to
Europe
but
of
course
they
are
not.
If
you
look
at
every
city
in
the
world
 and
every
city
certainly
in
Europe,
from
Strasbourg
to
Paris,
Vienna,
the
UK,
Copenhagen
elsewhere.


There
will
be
a
Turkish
community,
a
Turkish
quarter,
Turkish
restaurants,
Turkish
kebabs.
Have
they
 undermined
the
identity
of
those
countries,
of
those
cities?
Absolutely
not!
So
I
think
we
got
to
be
open
 and
sensible
about
what
migration
achieves
but
more
importantly,
we
have
to
be
honest
that
each
of
 us
live
in
countries
that
have
for
centuries
come
about
the
course
of
migratory
flows
across
Europe.






CNC:
So
 when
 some
 people
 argue
 that
 Turkey
 is
 not
 a
 European
 country,
 you
 would
 disagree
 strongly
 with
that?





MC:
 Absolutely!
 I
 mean,
 don't
 get
 me
 wrong,
 there
 are
 problems
 in
 Turkey
 which
 needs
 to
 be
 addressed
 but
 there
 are
 some
 problems
 that
 has
 actually
 been
 brought
 about
 by
 EU's
 reluctance
 to
 engage
sincerely
in
accession
negotiation.
So..
I
forgot
you
question...





CNC:
Turkey
as
a
European
country
 


MC:
Well…






CNC:
What
to
you
is
a
European
country;
political,
economic,
cooperation?





MC:
 Let
 me
 see,
 I
 think
 your
 question,
 the
 way
 you
 phrased
 it,
 was
 much
 better.
 Go
 to
 Izmir,
 go
 to
 Istanbul,
 go
 to
 Ankara
 go
 to
 any
 small
 or
 medium‐sized
 city
 in
 Turkey
 and
 se
 the
 commerce
 functioning
 in
 the
 exactly
 same
 way,
 the
 roads
 being
 used
 in
 exactly
 the
 same
 way,
 the
 laws
 being
 applied.
It's
Turkey's
development
from
the
founding
of
Atatürk
into
a
modern
secular
democracy
it's
 very
much
in
line
with
the
best
of
European
democracies.
Its
judiciary
and
it's
judicial
processes
very
 much
 mirror
 continental
 Europe,
 they
 don't
 mirror
 the
 country
 that
 I
 come
 from.
 But
 I
 think
 'yes',
 through
its
democracy,
through
its
laws,
its
aspirations,
where
it
trades,
who
it
trades
with,
its
role
in
 security
 dimensions
 of
 NATO
 and
 its
 role
 at
 the
 UN,
 and
 their
 (incomprehensible)
 in
 multinational
 organizations,
I
think
is
evidence
enough
that
Turkey
is
a
European
country
and
one
could
argue
that
 if
it
was
not
for
the
Turks
a
new
form
of
ceramics
would
never
have
arrived
in
Europe,
orange
juice;


would
 never
 had
 arrived
 as
 something
 that
 is
 freshly
 squeezed
 and
 pressed
 an
 certainly
 coffee
 wouldn’t
be
on
our
breakfast
menus
every
morning.
The
Turks
are
as
much
a
part
of
Europe
as
let's
 say
the
centre
of
Vienna
is.






CNC:
As
you
said,
there
are
still
some
problems
in
Turkey
and
Erdogan
has
made
a
lot
of
progress,
a
lot
of
 reform
policies,
do
you
perceive
his
intentions
and
his
politics
as
sincere?





MC:
I
believe
that
we
have
by
and
large
created
the
problem
of
that
divergence
away
from
secular
line
 in
Turkish
politics
because
we
have
demanded
changes,
the
changes
has
rightly
been
introduced,
not
 the
least
in
the
judicial
packages;
the
reform
of
the
judiciary,
the
separation
of
powers.
But
the
resent
 statements
and
the
actions
over
the
last
three
years
do
cause
me
some
concern;
the
clapping
down
of
 media
 freedom,
 detention
 without
 trial,
 which
 has
 lasted
 up
 to
 years
 in
 some
 cases
 related
 to
 Sledgehammer,
 Ergenecon
 and
 the
 media
 trials,
 TV
 trials.
 Are
 all
 steps
 backwards,
 the
 resent
 announcements
 by
 the
 Prime
 Minister
 regarding
 women’s
 right
 to
 chose
 an
 abortion
 or
 not,
 again
 worry
me
that
he
seems
to
be
increasingly
playing
to
the
religious
right.
But
I
think
by
and
large
we
 have
 helped
 that;
 rather
 than
 embracing
 Turkey
 we
 been
 trying
 to
 push
 Turkey
 away.
 So
 they've
 taken..
 They’ve
 adopted
 measures
 on
 non‐discrimination,
 they
 have
 yet
 to
 move
 fully
 to
 that,
 which
 they
are
trying
to
address
through
the
constitution
but
haven't
yet
done
so.
But
I
think
by
us
pushing
 Turkey
away
pro
European
within
Turkey
have
diminished,
the
nationalists
have
increased
and
hence
 why
Erdogan
is
playing
a
much
tougher
line
vis
a
vis
European
values,
which
I
believe
are
universal
 values.
 They
 are
 Turkish
 values,
 quality,
 fairness,
 justice,
 independent
 judiciary,
 a
 fully
 functioning
 democracy,
opposition
parties,
free
media,
these
are
universal
values.





CNC:
Speaking
of
universal
values
and
human
rights,
if
you
look
at
Commission
progress
reports,
even
the
 most
resent
one,
still
states
that
there
are
a
lot
of
problems
with
compliance
with
human
rights.
I
know
 that
 you
 have
 worked
 a
 lot
 within
 the
 area
 of
 human
 rights,
 LGBT
 group,
 and
 there
 are
 still
 many
 problems
in
relation
to
that.
People
are
still
being...





MC:
...murdered!
Transpeople
being
murdered.






CNC:
And
fired
from
public
jobs,
on
the
grounds
of
their
sexuality.
Why
is
it
so
difficult
for
the
Turkish
 society
to
change
on
these
areas?





MC:
 It's
 a
 society
 that
 was
 originally
 based
 around
 land
 holdings,
 working
 the
 land.
 And
 therefore
 communities
are
very
small
and
very
integrated.
And
like
other
Mediterranean
countries,
and
I
see
no
 dissimilarity
 from
 the
 attitudes
 there
 were
 in
 Greece,
 Italy,
 Spain,
 Portugal
 in
 relation
 to
 difference;


sexuality,
 sexual
 orientation.
 The
 notion
 the,
 was
 that
 you
 could
 live
 your
 life
 quietly
 if
 you
 had
 a
 double
life.
Now
we
have
all
moved
on
since
then
but
to
a
certain
extend
that
still
exists
within
Turkey
 as
well
as
with
other
countries.
Not
the
least
within
Italy,
one
of
the
founding
members
of
the
EU.






CNC:
Yes,
we
see
it
in
a
lot
of
European
countries.





MC:
Yeah.
So
we
have
introduced
a
body
of
law
which
would
be
incumbent
upon
Turkey
to
adopt,
and
 that
 means
 non‐discrimination
 in
 the
 workplace
 and
 particular
 on
 the
 grounds
 of
 race,
 ethnicity,
 religion,
believe,
age,
disability,
sexual
orientation.
That
would
have
to
be
implemented
but
it
needs
 courage
from
politicians
to
lead
public
opinion.
The
public
will
never
lead
on
this;
the
public
has
to
be
 led.
And
I
made
this
very
point
in
a
lecture
I
delivered
in
memory
of
Hrant
Dink
two
years
ago
at
the
 (uforståeligt)
University
in
Istanbul.
And
it
comes
down
to
religion
of
belief.
That
religion
of
belief
is
 often
 used
 within
 society
 to
 exclude
 people
 (incomprehensible).
 But
 I
 argue
 that
 religion
 of
 belief
 especially
in
a
modern
and
secular
country
like
Turkey,
religion
of
belief
should
remain
private
and
 personal
and
never
imposed
upon
another
if
by
comparison
to
the
imposer
you
diminish
somebody
 else's
 civil
 liberties
 or
 human
 rights
 That
 is
 what
 currently
 happens.
 Often
 culture
 and
 religion
 are
 used
 as
 the
 excuse
 but
 I
 believe
 we
 need
 to
 make
 progress
 within
 the
 revision
 of
 the
 constitution,
 within
 Turkey.
 So
 the
 LGTB
 people
 and
 others,
 their
 lives
 are
 not
 threatened,
 their
 jobs,
 their
 livelihood,
their
futures
are
not
threatened,
solely
because
somebody
believes
them
to
be
different
and
 possibly
a
threat.
And
interestingly
as
a
gay
man
who
lives
in
Turkey,
is
openly
gay
in
Turkey,
I
get
 some
people
who
don't
want
to
talk
to
me,
but
by
and
large
I
get
people
who
pass
it
of
as
just
one
part
 of
me.
And
so
I
think
there
is
a
great
deal
more
understanding
and
tolerance
that
comes..
and
tolerance
 is
not
necessarily
the
achievement
we
want
to
get.
But
understanding
and
tolerance
where
people
get


to
 know
 that
 actually
 we
 are
 all
 ordinary
 men
 and
 women
 trying
 to
 do
 and
 achieve
 the
 exactly
 the
 same,
which
is
to
get
through
our
day
and
look
after
the
people
we
love.





CNC:
So
in
the
end
you
don't
believe
that
a
country's
Muslim
background
is
standing
in
the
way
of
them
 developing
democracy
and
developing
out
view,
similar
view,
on
human
rights?





MC:
 No,
 see...
 Certainly
 being
 a
 Muslim
 country
 would
 not
 exclude
 it.
 I
 see
 greater
 resistance
 to
 achieving
these
rights
from
organized
Christian
religions.
If
you
look
at
pronouncements
from
certain
 archbishops
 from
 the
 so
 called
 Anglican
 church
 and
 from
 the
 roman‐catholic
 church,
 who
 are
 virulently
against
the
rights
of
women,
and
the
rights
of
transgendered
people
and
LGB
people
to
be
 given
 the
 universality
 of
 human
 rights.
 I
 don't
 see
 that
 kind
 of
 organized
 Muslim
 religion
 approach.


Not
at
all.





CNC:
So…





MC:
But
I
think
that
you
would
probably
find
that
the
Koran
says
very
very
little
on
homosexuality
and
 probably
 says,
 like
 the
 Bible,
 a
 great
 deal
 about
 love.
 With
 the
 obsessions
 with
 Christians,
 with
 sex,
 when
it
comes
to
the
interpretation
of
religious
tones,
never
fails
to
amuse
me.
Especially
when
it's
 from
(incomprehensible)
men
who
propose
to
know
nothing
about
sex.
Or
relationships,
ore
marriage.






CNC:
A
few
years
ago
we
had
a
debate
about
the
European
constitution
and
whether
or
not
Christianity
 should
be
written
down
as
a
value
of
the
Union.
There
were
quite
a
lot
of
countries
that
believed
in
this,
 that
 out
 values
 come
 from
 out
 Christian
 background.
 Do
 you
 believe
 that
 this
 attitude
 is
 kind
 of
 an
 attempt
to
shut
out
a
country
like
Turkey?





MC:
I
think
it's
an
attempt
to
rewrite
history
and
rewrite
human
development.
There's
been
a
resent
 study
 that
 shows
 in
 great
 apes
 that
 they
 shown
 concerns
 towards
 strangers
 that
 come
 in
 to
 their
 community
 and
 will
 feed
 them.
 So
 I
 would
 say
 that
 these
 aren't
 Christian
 values,
 these
 are
 human
 values.
Are
we
honestly
saying
that
without
Christianity
we
wouldn't
care
about
another
or
want
to
 have
 our
 children
 safe
 and
 protected
 in
 the
 world?
 No,
 these
 are
 human
 instincts,
 which
 has
 been
 colored
 and
 captured
 by
 organized
 Christian
 religions
 to
 give
 them,
 they
 believe,
 an
 excuse
 to
 deny
 other
people
such
rights.
To
say
that
Christianity
is
a
value
solely
of
itself
is
wrong.
Because
what
does
 that
say
to
a
country
where
there
are..
the
European
Union,
there
are
approximately
between
20‐40
 million
Muslim
currently
living
in
the
EU?
What
are
we
saying
to
them?
That
they
are
second
rank?


What
are
they
saying
to
me
that
was
baptized
a
catholic
and
discommunicated
myself
from
the
church
 because
I
didn't
wanted
to
be
associated
with
it's
values?
What
does
it
say
to
the
Jews?
What
does
it
 say
to
the
Buddhists,
the
Hindus?
No.
We
are
a
diverse
Europe
based
on
a
common
understanding
that
 all
men
and
women
are
born
equal
and
die
equally.
The
first
and
the
last
breaths
are
the
only
moments
 when
we
are
absolutely
equal,
it's
that
time
in‐between
that
we
have
got
to
make
sure
that
each
of
us
 are
treated
equally.
And
that
doesn't
depend
on
Christianity.
One
would
argue,
if
you
look
at
the
wars
 that
has
been
fought
on
Christianity,
contrary.






CNC:
We
talked
a
bit
about
the
politics
in
Turkey,
how
Erdogan
faces
both
ways;
both
towards
his
Islamic
 background
of
the
country
and
than
also
towards
Europe.
And
we
have
seen
some
examples
of
this,
that
 religion
somehow
still
plays
a
role
in
politics
in
Turkey.
For
instance;
Turkey
is
still
a
member
of
the
OIC,
 they
 still
 somehow
 view
 themselves
 as
 a
 Turkish
 community,
 and
 Turkey
 was
 also
 involved,
 in
 2005,
 I
 guess
you
remember
the
Mohammed
drawings
from
Denmark
and
the
Turkish
ambassador
to
Denmark
 was
one
of
the
ambassadors
to
sign
a
letter
for
our
Prime
Minister,
asking
him
to
take
action
this
matter.


So
how
do
you
interpret
these
things?
Do
you
think
that
religion
still
plays
a
role
in
politics,
even
though
 it
is
claimed
to
be
a
secular
country?





MC:
Uhm.
Religion
plays
a
role
in
nearly
every
country
of
the
European
Union.
As
we
are
running
up
to


the
reselection
of
members
of
the
European
Parliaments,
the
election
in
2014,
the
old
religious
card
is
 being
 played
 yet
 again.
 I
 see
 members
 of
 parliament,
 from
 countries
 as
 wide
 as
 Spain
 through
 to
 Ireland
 opposing
 the
 right,
 sexual
 reproductive
 health
 rights,
 funding
 of
 organizations
 that
 give
 women
 information
 about
 this.
 Why?
 Because
 they
 think
 there
 is
 an
 elector,
 a
 Catholic
 Christian
 elector.
 Politics
 and
 religion
 are
 one
 of
 the
 most
 explosive
 combinations
 imaginable.
 If
 you
 don't
 believe
me,
just
look
at
Israel,
just
look
at
the
Middle
East.
And
Turkey,
like
other
countries,
has
often
 supported...
 so
 yes;
 politics
 does
 run
 of
 course
 with
 religion
 through
 the
 Turkish
 political
 system.


Sometimes
to
a
greater,
sometimes
to
a
lesser
extend.
But
we
must
remember
that
that
happens
as
I
 said
in
EU
countries
where
Prime
Minister
and
Presidents
think
it's
extremely
important
that
they'd
be
 seeing
 going
 to
 church
 and
 taking
 mass
 from
 the
 Pope
 or
 meeting
 an
 Anglican
 bishop
 and
 getting
 communion...





CNC:
Swearing
by
the
Bible…





MC:
Jep!
Obama
being
sworn
in
by
the
Bible,
why
wasn't
he
sworn
in
by
many
books
or
books
and
non.


That's
 what
 I
 read,
 I
 swear
 by
 all
 books
 and
 non.
 Because
 if
 you
 cannot
 swear
 on
 you
 integrity,
 swearing
 on
 a
 book
 won't
 give
 you
 integrity.
 So;
 we
 in
 the
 West
 have
 used
 a
 manipulated
 Turkish
 influence
 as
 a
 Muslim
 country
 in
 the
 (incomprehensible)
 in
 that
 region.
 And
 indeed
 we
 used
 it
 in
 relation
to
Israel.
But
what
we
have
to
do
is
to
lead
by
example.
And
we
are
not
leading
by
example
in
 terms
of
separation
of
religion
and
politics.
Why
is
it
that
the
Holy
Sea
has
a
seat
at
the
UN?
Completely
 inexcusable!
But
because
it's
a
religion
that
people
feel
comfortable
with,
they
accept
it.
I
think
there
is
 a
great
deal
of
ignorance
about
other
religions
and
in
particular
Islam.
And
I
think
a
lot
of
people
in
 modern
 day
 associate
 Islam
 with
 a
 form
 of
 terrorism
 that
 grew
 out
 of
 al
 Qaida.
 And..
 you
 know..


Religions
 are
 used
 as
 an
 excuse,
 the
 riots
 about
 Mohammed,
 should
 have
 never
 happened,
 as
 I
 said
 earlier,
and
I
really
mean
it,
if
you
have
faith,
no
matter
what
anybody
does,
you
know,
Christ
on
the
 cross,
in
the
Life
of
Brian,
if
you
take
the
piss
out
of
that,
and
your
an
avid
follower,
a
believer,
that
 doesn't
diminish
your
faith
it
reinforces
it
because
faith
of
it
nature
means
that
it
cannot
be
challenged
 or
diminished.
And
there
I
argue,
and
especially
in
relation
to
religion
and
politics;
faith
and
believes
 are
probably
the
most
private
and
personal
things
our
can
experience
apart
from
an
orgasm,
and
like
a
 orgasm
you
should
experience
it
with
others
who
are
consenting
or
one
your
own
but
never
impose
it
 upon
 another.
 And…
 but
 it
 is
 a
 wonder
 that
 Turkey
 occasionally
 feels
 it
 necessary
 to
 ally
 itself
 with
 common
courses
which
I
think
reinforces
to
some
that
it
hasn't
lost
it's
identity
as
a
country
in
that
 part
of
the
world
were
Islam
is
predominant.






CNC:
Is
this
also..
is
this
something
the
also
do
because
they
are
not
quite
sure
that
they
will
ever
join
the
 EU?
Do
they
keep
allies
on
both
sides?






MC:
Uhm,
I'm
not
sure.
I
believe
whether
they
join
the
EU
or
not
used
to
be
a
matter
of
pride.
Now
it's
a
 matter
of
pragmatism.
Their
economy
is
doing
much
better
than
any
single
European
economy.
GDP
is
 something
 in
 the
 region
 of
 67%,
 or
 last
 year,
 in
 the
 region
 of
 67%,
 it's
 doing
 really
 well,
 inflow
 of
 investment
is
increasing.
So
I
just
think
Turkey
is
modernizing
and
will
continue
to
modernize
and
will
 be
a
major
trading
partner,
so
I
don't
think
it's
that
it
coses
up
with
causes
and
countries
because
they
 feel
they
might
be
isolated
because
Turkey's
identity
is
much
stronger
than
that.
But
it's
interesting
 that
you
know
you
look
at
Erdogan
and
the
government
and
their
reaction
to
Syria,
where
they
have
 placed
all
common
strands
aside
from
what
is
happening.
And
that
is
imminently
commendable.
And
 what
Erdogan
has
tried
to
do
in
relation
to
the
west
bank.
And
you
know
to
encourage
the
peaceful
 settlements
 between..
 to
 encourage
 the
 settlement
 of
 peace
 between
 the
 two
 sides.
 So
 I
 think
 their
 identity
is
much
stronger
than
some
would
have
us
believe.






CNC:
And
then,
this
strong
identity
which
is
very
often
in
Turkey
thought
of
as
a
very
strong
nationalism.


Can
that
strong
nationalism
exist
in
the
EU?






MC:
 It's
 not
 a
 strong
 nationalism;
 it's
 a
 strong
 patriotism.
 And
 the
 two
 are
 very
 different.
 Also
 countries
where
you
still
have
conscription.
The
consequences
of
nationalism
are
there
in
every
family
 that
has
a
male
son.
Has
a
son.
Because
he
will
go
into
the
army
to
fight
for
Turkey.
And
also
the
sense
 of
nationhood
is
extremely
important
to
Turkey.
The
nation
gives
to
you
and
the
nation
expects
that
 you
 give
 back,
 and
 you
 give
 a
 loyalty.
 It's
 interesting,
 cause
 it's
 quite
 and
 old
 fashioned
 kind
 of
 patriotism
 but
 it's
 interestingly
 one
 that
 European
 countries
 are
 now
 hankering
 after.
 Like,
 and
 not
 only,
 the
 United
 Kingdom.
 Like
 Denmark.
 What
 does
 it
 mean
 to
 be
 Danish.
 Like
 the..
 Like
 Greece.


Countries
are
looking
more
for
what
sets
them
aside,
what
makes
them
tick.
So
I
don't
see
that..
I
don't
 think..
I've
always
argued
that
as
politicians
we
have
to
redefine
what
nationalism
means
and
take
it
 away
from
when
nationalism
is
used
in
a
negative
way;
to
isolate
and
expel.






CNC:
So
you
believe
that
the
Turkish
nationalism/patriotism
can
also
adhere
to
European
values?
Is
there
 room
enough
to
develop
Turkish
nationalism?





MC:
I
think
only
if
a
country
has
a
strong
identity
can
it
become
a
strong
member
of
the
EU
in
the
same
 way
that
the
Nordic
countries
have
very
strong
identities,
along
side
interestingly
wit
United
Kingdom,
 on
 why
 we
 resisted
 certain
 changes
 and
 elements.
 That's
 what
 makes
 Europe
 strong
 the
 fact
 that
 collectively,
rather
than
Cameron's
idea
which
is
separately,
collectively
we
use
our
strengths
for
one
 and
other.
So
no,
a
strong
Turkey
and
a
Turkey
that
knows
it's
a
strong
nation
is
not
a
threat,
it's
an
 addition,
it's
an
adornment.





CNC:
So
just
quickly
to
sum
up
on
an
earlier
theme;
you
were
talking
about
the
accession
process.
Do
you
 believe
that
Turkey
has
been
treated
differently
than
other
countries?





MC:
Yes!
yes!
First
of
all;
if
you
look
at
the
length
of
time
it
was
a
candidate
country,
the
length
of
time
 it's
been
an
accession
country,
if
you
look
at
the
changes
that
Turkey
introduced
and
then
the
changes
 that
 were
 introduced
 (incomprehensible)
 and
 very
 importantly
 by
 Romania
 and
 Bulgaria.
 And
 Bulgaria
were
let
in
ahead
of..
There
has
been
a
different
set
of
benchmarks.
And
the
Turks
are
great
at
 getting
things
done;
the
Turks
want
more
chapters
opened.
And
we
won't
open
them.
We
should
open
 them.
Erdogan
set
a
date,
a
think
it's
2020,
or
it
might
even
by
2030,
where
he
said
that
if
we
haven't
 completed
the
accession
process,
Turkey
will
finish
it.
I
think
there's
a
kind
of
attitude
in
Turkey
now
 which
is
'do
we
really
want
to
be
a
part
of
the
Europe
that
we
see
now?'.
So
yeah..





CNC:
So
you
think
the
process
has
been
haltered
by
the
EU?






MC:
I
think
yes!






CNC:
Are
Turkey
also
a
part
of
the
problem?





MC:
 No,
 I
 think
 Turkey
 lately
 has
 become
 part
 of
 the
 problem
 in
 it's
 reaction
 to
 our
 reports,
 the
 Commission
reports.
I
think
in
relation
to
what
it's
been
doing
with
these
trials
and
detentions.
But
I
 do
think
we
caused,
if
there
is
a
problem
we
caused
it.






CNC:
I
think
that
was
just
about
it.
Do
you
have
any
final
remarks?





MC:
 No,
 I
 think
 I
 covered
 them.
 You
 know.
 Just
 to
 retrace
 what
 I
 said,
 and
 I
 said
 in
 committee,
 that
 Turkey
needs
Europe
and
I
think
Turkey
is
now
questioning
whether
Turkey
needs
Europe.
And
if
it
 doesn't,
it
will
form
I
believe
an
amazing
association
with
the
(incomprehensible)
countries;
Russia,
 India,
China,
possibly
Brazil,
possibly
South
Africa,
to
be
an
amazing
trading
flock,
amazing.






CNC:
Do
you
think,
just
a
final
question,
that
if
the
EU
finally
­
or
if
Turkey
finally
turns
away
from
the
EU


­
that
this
will
affect
internal
issues
in
Turkey
such
as
human
rights
and…


In document ”Tyrkiet kan da godt blive medlem, men…” (Sider 111-118)