Bilag
3:
Ismail
Ertug




Transkribering
 af
 interview
 med
 Ismail
 Ertug,
 tysk
 medlem
 af
 Europa­Parlamentet
 for
 Sozialdemokratische
 Partei
 Deutschlands,
 i
 Europa­Parlamentet
 medlem
 af
 S&D,
 den
 socialdemokratiske
gruppe.
Interviewet
er
udført
den
15.
januar
2013.






CNC:
Cathrine
Nygaard
Christensen
(interviewer)
 IE:
Ismail
Ertug
(respondent)





CNC:
So
 if
 I
 may
 just
 ask
 you,
 to
 begin
 with,
 what
 is
 your
 general
 view
 on
 EU
 as
 a
 community?
 Which
 values
do
you
see
the
EU
based
on,
are
the
political
and
economic
or
are
there
some
sort
of
cultural
values
 involved
as
well?





IE:
I
think
all
of
these
topics
are
included.
But
for
me,
the
most
important
thing
that
we
have
to
know
is
 that
the
EU,
in
the
beginning
after
World
War
II,
it
was
a
peace
project.
And
we
forget,
especially
our
 young
generation.
It
is
not
clear
for
them,
for
that
means,
the
European
Union.
This
is
for
me
the
most
 important.
The
peace
and
stability.
The
next
thing
is
clear
that
cultural
perspectives
and
dimensions
 are
included
as
well.
Within
this
topic
is
the
economical
part
of
the
union.
And
for
me,
the
hierarchy
is
 important;
peace
and
stability,
and
this
is
for
us
the
precondition
to
have
economical
growth
and
all
 the
other
things.






CNC:
So
a
European
country,
is
that
a
country
that
share
the
values,
and
cultural
values,
of
the
current
 EU
countries?





IE:
Yes.
The
EU
has
clear
values,
which
are
totally
open
and
obvious
in
our
treaties.
And
if
you
agree
on
 these
 treaties,
 on
 this
 issue
 of
 the
 content,
 and
 if
 you
 are
 a
 European
 country
 you
 should
 have
 the
 chance
to
join
this
community.
And
this
for
me
is
clear.
That
was
the
same
case
in
1963
with
Turkey.


Now
we
have
the
discussion,
that
Turkey
is
not
on
the
European
continent
but
Turkey
is
clearly
on
the
 European
continent,
this
is
not
a
topic.
And
this
is
more...
I
will
say
this
argument
is
for
the
right‐wings
 and
for
the
more
conservatives
in
the
European
Union
because
we
have
several
examples
that
Turkey
 is
on
the
European
continent
if
you
look
to
football,
music
contests
and
all
those
things.
They
are
in
the
 European
Council
and
several
other
European
institutions.






CNC:
 
 So
 you
 believe
 the
 cultural
 argument,
 you
 are
 talking
 about,
 belongs
 to
 the
 right­wing
 conservatives?





IE:
I
think
that
the
cultural
argument
is
not
only
an
issue
for
the
right‐wing
and
conservatives
but
if
 you
 need
 this
 argument
 to
 prevent
 something,
 they
 are
 using
 it.
 And
 I
 think
 this
 is
 one
 of
 the
 most
 important
issues.
If
you
look
back
20‐30
no
one
in
the
European
Union
thought
really
seriously
that
 Turkey
would
join
the
European
Union,
because
they
had
their
own
problems
with
three
coup
d'etat,
 and
 they
 were
 the
 poor
 man
 of
 the
 Bosporus
 and
 all
 the
 things.
 But
 now
 we
 have
 a
 different
 constellation,
they
grow
economically,
they
have
a
strategically
big
role
in
their
region
and
I
want
to
 mention
the
energy
issue.
So
the
cultural
issue
is
more
an
argument
for
Turkey
than
against
Turkey
 because
Turkey
has
more
than
1000
years
of
Christian
culture
within
this
country.
Its
boarders.





CNC:
So
what
do
you
think
that
a
potential
Turkish
membership
would
bring
to
the
EU?





IE:
Yes,
it
would
bring...
this
is
my
specific
thought
of
the
issue:
I
think
after
the
fall
of
the
Berlin
wall
it
 would
be
the
second
big
step
towards
a
peace
project.
Whether
we
agree
or
not,
Turkey
is
a
bridge
to
 problematic
 regions,
 and
 they
 are
 our
 neighbor
 region,
 Africa,
 near
 east,
 Middle
 East
 are
 neighbor
 regions.
Every
problem
there,
will
involve
us.
Maybe
not
in
a
short
time,
but
in
the
middle
perspective


it
will
catch
us.
With
Turkey
we
would
have
economic,
economic
stability
in
the
Middle
East
and
not
to
 forget
we
would
have
a
big
step
into
the
continent
of
Africa.
And
especially
looking
from
the
German
 perspective,
 now
 in
 Germany
 and
 the
 (uforståeligt)
 from
 Chancellor
 Merkel
 shows
 that
 once
 again
 Africa
 is..
 we
 have
 our
 views
 (eyes)
 on
 that
 continent.
 But
 I
 am
 not
 so
 happy
 about
 the
 intention
 behind.
Most
of
them
are
looking
at
valuable
raw
materials
but
I
would
like
to
say
it
in
another
way;
I
 think
this
is
important
but
the
people
there
are
important
as
well.
If
you
speak
with
Africans,
they
say


"yeah,
you
are
a
white
with
a
black
heart
and
in
the
past
we
had
white
with
white
hearts"
and
that
 means
a
very
positive
thing.
And
they
have
a
big
anger
against
us
unfortunately.





CNC:
The
reform
process
in
Turkey
has
been
ongoing
in
Turkey
for
many
years
now.
Do
you
perceive
the
 reform
process
by
Erdogan
as
sincere?
Does
he
really
want
to
align
Turkey's
politics
with
EU
politics?
And
 Turkey's
view
on
freedom
of
speech
and
freedom
of
press?





IE:
If
you
had
asked
me
this
two
years
ago,
I
would
clearly
say
yes.
But
now
I
have
the
impression
that
 Turkish
people,
and
I
am
totally
sure,
cause
I'm
a
member
of
the
EU‐Turkey
delegation.
Turkish
people
 in
 particularly
 the
 young
 generation
 a
 more
 high
 percentage
 are
 Europeans
 and
 they
 feel
 like
 Europeans.
Okay,
there
are
Muslims
maybe
but
it's
not
the
case.
The
most
of
they
young
generation
are
 Europeans
and
they
would
like
to
be
a
European
citizen.





CNC:
Does
this
mean
the
educated
generation?





IE:
This
is
not
only
the
educated
generation
but
it
is
easier
to
have
positive
opinion
on
the
EU
for
the
 educated
than
for
the
not
so
well
educated
part
of
the
society.
But
in
general
the
young
people
are
in
 favor
of
the
European
Union.
If
you
ask
them:
"Would
you
join
the
EU
if
the
EU
would
say
yes
to
you?"


they
would
say
clearly
yes.
But
if
you
ask
them:
"Do
you
think
that
the
EU
will
include
Turkey?"
they
 will
say
no.
And
this
is
a
mistake,
which
was
made
in
the
past.
Not
only
from
Turkey
but
also
from
the
 European
 Union.
 And
 I
 have
 to
 say
 that
 with
 Sakozy
 and
 Merkel's
 political
 issues
 and
 all
 that
 discouraging
messages
which
we
have
given
them
in
the
past.
It
discourages
the
people
in
Turkey
and
 after
that
politician
of
the
AKP
there
are
dealing
with
both
of
those
feeling.
On
one
hand
they
say
that
 they
are
in
line
and
we
are
trying
to
fulfill
our
requirements
and
on
the
other
hand
they
are
playing
 with
the
fears
and
anger
of
the
people
in
Turkey.
They
say
"the
Europeans
don't
want
us"
and
we
have
 to
respond
that
the
European
Union
is
not
at
monolithic
group,
we
have
27
different
countries
and
in
 the
countries
the
governments
are
changing
and
if
you
have
a
conservative
government
in
for
instance
 Germany,
France,
Denmark
or
Belgium
and
Austria
and
these
countries
are
decisive
and
if
they
have
a
 conservative
government
the
view
to
Turkey
are
not
so
positive.
But
if
you
have
in
the
Mediterranean
 countries
 a
 change
 from
 social
 democrat,
 liberal
 to
 conservative
 that
 doesn't
 make
 any
 difference,
 because
 they
 are
 looking
 positively
 at
 Turkey.
 This
 is
 the
 reason
 I
 guess
 because
 of
 the
 so
 many
 workers
that
went
to
Europe
30‐40
years
ago
and
I,
as
well,
is
a
guest
worker
child
in
Germany
and
all
 the
examples
are
alive
and
integration
policy
contributed
to
a
negative
sight
(view)
on
people
because
 they
were
not
so
well
educated.





CNC:
That
was
one
of
the
things
I
wanted
to
ask
you,
because
I
know
there
is
quite
a
negative
attitude
in
 your
country
towards
Turkey
among
the
population.
Is
that
related
to
integration
issues
or
what
is
the
 main
concern
of
the
population?





IE:
Two
things:
one
thing
is
the
integration
issue
where
not
on
the
first
five
topics
until
10
years
ago.


After
1998
with
the
Schröder‐government
in
Germany
we
started
to
think
of
these
people
why
are
not
 originally
Germans
or
they
are
new
Germans.
An
in
that
period
we
said,
okay
there
is
a
word,
thing
like
 integration.
 And
 before
 that,
 all
 the
 people
 were
 guest
 worker.
 With
 the
 thinking
 behind,
 that
 they
 would
go
back
to
their
old
countries.
And
that
brought
us
in
a
difficult
situation
that
nothing
was
done
 for
 the
 integration
 of
 these
 people.
 We
 have
 the
 example
 of
 the
 former
 Soviet
 republic
 Germans
 maybe,
they
received
obligatory
German
speaking
tests
and
courses
but
for
Turkish
people;
nothing.


Ad
so
they
were
not
able
to
learn
German
very
good
without
the
accent
and
if
you
aren't
able
to
speak
 the
language
of
the
country
you
have
all
negative
disadvantages;
labor
market...
And
this
is
the
first
 reason
for
the
negative
attitude
and
the
second
is
the
policy,
that
was
made
in
the
past.
Politician
said
 things
about
Turks,
things
from
the
Middle
age
and
all
the
things.
This
is
the
second
issue
why
there
is
 a
negative
attitude.





CNC:
So
it
was
the
political
rhetoric?






IE:
The
political
way
of
talking
yes,
this
is
clearly
a
message
on
internal
politic
and
domestic
politics
 towards
the
next
elections.
And
every
time
you
can
follow
it,
you
can
see
it
in
Germany
till
the
end
of..


in
 2010
 was
 the
 last
 election
 in
 Essen,
 they
 tried
 to
 make
 a
 negative
 campaign
 against
 Turkish
 teenagers
because
two
of
them
threatened
and
old
man
in
the
queue
of
the
metro.
So
they
tried
to
use
 it
as
negative
campaigning
against
all
foreigners.
But
that
was
not
successful
and
I
think
that
was
the
 breaking
point
in
Germany.
Since
then
they
are
not
so
obvious
against.
That
will
change.
This
attitude
 will
change
in
Germany,
totally
change,
I
believe
in
it,
because
of
the
Erasmus‐generation.
I
call
it
the
 Erasmus
generation,
they
are
people,
maybe
like
you,
that
have
and
will
have
the
opportunity
to
have
 contact
to
their
Turkish
counterparts
and
colleagues,
students.
I
am
37
years
old
and
I
don't
think
this
 is
very
old
for
an
MEP.
But
if
I
remember
back,
20
years
ago
we
hadn't
the
chance
to
go
to
university
in
 Paris
or
London
or
Ankara
or
Madrid...
It
was
totally
unnormal
in
my
years
as
a
teenager.






CNC:
Maybe
the
population's
fear
is
very
much
based
on
not
having
any
knowledge?





IE:
This
is
the
case;
not
having
any
knowledge,
this
is
the
main
reason
for
the
people
to
say
"no,
I
don't
 know
them,
and
I
hear
and
I
have
read
something".
This
is
the
case.
If
you
make
this
same
survey
in
 Romania
 or
 Hungary,
 because
 they
 are
 nearer
 to
 Turkey
 and
 they
 have
 more
 connections
 from
 the
 Ottoman
 Empire,
 this
 attitude
 is
 positive.
 And
 this
 shows
 us
 the
 missing
 knowledge
 is
 a
 big
 big
 problem.





CNC:
If
 I
 may
 quickly
 return
 to
 the
 debate
 about
 religion
 as
 a
 factor,
 do
 you
 believe
 a
 debate
 about
 religion
 has
 any
 place
 in
 the
 debate
 about
 Turkey?
 Do
 you
 believe
 a
 country's
 religious
 background
 determines
 the
 possibility
 to
 developed
 democracy,
 implement
 human
 rights?
 Is
 it
 okay
 to
 debate
 Turkey's
religion
in
Europe?





IE:
The
case
is;
that
religion
is
not
a
precondition
in
the
Copenhagen
Criteria.
And
all
the
politicians
 know
 that
 very
 well.
 So
 they
 are
 not
 raising
 that
 discussion.
 But
 this
 is
 in
 their
 minds.
 If
 they
 say
 'culture',
the
culture
of
the
Turks
doesn't
fit
with
ours,
they
mostly
mean
the
religion
behind
that.
If
 they
raise
(the
question
of)
religion,
all
the
supporters
will
say:
"Sorry,
but
that
is
not
at
criteria".
And
 this..
 in
 the
 older
 generation,
 is
 the
 biggest
 problem
 I
 guess.
 They
 don't
 have
 any
 experience
 to
 live
 with
 Muslims
 or
 Turks
 and
 they
 have
 from
 the
 church,
 why
 have
 to
 be
 honest;
 they
 have
 (incomprehensible)
for
ages
into
the
new
time.
In
the
past
the
church
was
one
of
the
institutions
that
 transferred
the
old
fears
from
the
Middle
Ages
to
the
new
time.
But
the
younger
generation
is
more
 important,
 and
 we
 see
 in
 all
 the
 statistics,
 human
 rights,
 right
 of
 free
 speech,
 press
 freedom,
 this
 is
 more
important
for
them.
For
the
older
generation,
it
is
the
culture
and
religion.






CNC:
Do
you
think
it's
more
difficult
for
the
Turkish
society
to
unite
with
Western
values?
Are
there
more
 difficulties
for
a
Muslim
country?





IE:
No!
I
totally
disagree
with
that
thesis,
because
if
you
look
to
Turkey
and
all
the
people
who
know
 Turkey
very
well,
know
that
Turkey
like
France
and
more
than
France..
We
say
in
German
laichitic
(?),
 I
don't
know
the
English
word
for
that…





CNC:
Like
the
French
laïcite?





EI:
 Yes,
 laïcite.
 It's
 a
 secular
 country.
 The
 secularization
 is
 very
 forward
 and
 since
 Atatürk.
 If
 you
 compare
Turkey
with
e.g.
the
right
for
joining
elections
for
women
we
see
that
Turkey
was
one
of
the
 first
countries
on
the
European
continent
to
give
women
the
right
to
vote.
And
that
shows
us,
and
the
 normal
living
shows
us,
that
that
Turks
are
Europeans
but
they
have
their
own
style.
This
is
the
thing,
 we
have
to
agree
on
it,
they
have
their
own
style,
like
the
Spanish,
like
the...
This
own
style
is
totally
 compatible
with
the
European
rights
and
values.
But
you
need
at
guide
for
that
and
the
guide
has
to
be,
 must
 be,
 the
 political
 elite
 in
 the
 country.
 And
 if
 you
 imprison
 journalist,
 if
 you
 imprison
 students
 because
of
some
folders
or
posters
they
have
published,
and
put
them
into
prison,
Europe
and
their
 own
 society
 looks
 to
 that
 and
 say
 "sorry,
 what
 is
 going
 on?".
 And
 "this
 is
 not
 in
 line
 with
 European
 values".
 But
 if
 you
 open
 your
 country,
 not
 only
 in
 the
 economical
 aspect,
 because
 economically
 it's
 totally
like
a
liberal
country,
Turkey,
but
more
than
in
culture,
more
than
in
LGBT
rights,
more
than
in
 free
speech
and
all
that
things.
Internets
all
that
issues,
that
they
will
show
us
in
Europe
and
the
same
 thing
is
valid
for
the
people
in
Turkey,
for
the
young
generation,
okay
we
are
Europeans
and
we
are
 living
like
Europeans.
And
I
think
this
is
the
most
important
thing
as
well.





CNC:
Some
of
the
points
that
the
Commission's
Progress
Reports
make
are
the
difficulties
of
compliance
of
 freedom
of
speech,
press,
etc.
Why
do
you
think
it's
so
difficult
for
Turkey
to
reform
on
these
areas?





IE:
The
issue
is,
that
Turkey
has
a
military
constitution.
And
the
anti
terror
law
is
so
broad,
you
know,
 and
this
is
the
case.






CNC:
Do
you
believe
it's
too
broad?





IE:
Too
broad.
Totally
too
broad.
And
so
this
is
why
we
claim
every
time
for
at
civil
constitution.
And
if
 you
speak
with
prosecutors
in
Turkey
e.g.
they
say;
"I
have
to
do
it,
because
the
constitution
gives
me
a
 broad
framework"
and
they
have
to
imprison
them.
The
problem
is,
and
I
asked
them,
in
Germany
we
 have
the
value
and
the
normal
ways
so
forth
you
cannot
bring
the
evidence
for
the
guiltiness
of
the
 people,
you
cannot
imprison
them.
But
in
Turkey,
it's
the
other
way
around,
you
imprison
them
and
 after
that
you're
starting
with
your...





CNC:
...Gathering
of
evidence?





IE:
Yes,
with
the
investigations.
And
one
year
ago
(after
one
year),
you
see
that
it
is
not
enough
and
 after
that
you
let
the
people
go.
And
I
think
this
is
not
the
way.
You
can
take
their
passport
away
so
the
 can't
leave
the
country,
but
you
have
to
finalize
the
investigation
while
the
people
are
free.
And
not
the
 other
way
around.
And
I
think
this
is
a
topic
which
is
very
important
and
I
hope
this
process
is
ongoing
 in
Turkey,
that
with
a
civil
constitution
all
these
problems
will
disappear
and
if
they
orient
themselves
 on
a
European
level
of
the
constitution
I
think
the
problem
will
stop.






CNC:
But
do
you
see
any
signs
that
the
government
is
working
in
that
direction?





IE:
 This
 is
 as
 well
 a
 domestic
 issue,
 there
 are
 someone
 who
 are
 very
 interested
 in
 it,
 and
 there
 are
 someone
who
are
not
interested
in
it.
And
for
the
time
being,
I
think
Erdogan
is
not
very
interested
in
 it
because
he
would
like
to
be
president
in
2014
and
he
needs
another
change
of
the
constitution.
We
 are
 looking
 to
 that
 change
 of
 the
 constitution
 which
 brings
 us
 nearer
 to
 what
 you
 have
 mentioned
 before,
and
I
think
he
is
looking
at
his
agenda
to
be
president
and
try
to
change
the
constitution
in
his
 way.
And
this
is
really
a
...
how
can
I
say...
?





CNC:
Do
you
worry
about
this
constitutional
change?





IE:
I'm
not
worried,
I’m
not
worried
but
the
thing
is
that
Turkey
will
lose
time
because
of
the
election


in
2014.
And
think
this
year
they
will
have
the
regional
elections
once
again
which
is
important
for
 them.
And
we
say
after
the
elections
or
before
the
elections
and
every
time
you
have
some
pressure
to
 make
 something
 or
 prevent
 something.
 But
 normally
 if
 Turkey
 or
 Turkish
 society
 they
 should
 be
 interested
in
a
civil
society
and
not
to
have
CNC:
president
like
Putin
in
Russia.
And
this
is
interesting;


in
the
AKP,
most
are
not
in
favor
of
the
idea
of
a
president
for
the
next
40
year
who
is
named
Erdogan.


His
ministers
as
well.
Not
every
one
of
the
but
some
of
them
said
very
openly
two
weeks
ago,
I
think
 the
tourist
minister,
that
it
is
not
a
good
idea.






CNC:
So
there
is
also
a
split?





IE:
A
total
split,
totally.
The
president
now
is
against,
Abdul
Gül,
he
is
not
in
favor.






CNC:
Because
he
(Erdogan)
wants
a
reform
that
carries
some
more
power
to
the
president?





IE:
Clear,
clear.
He
would
like
to
change
it
totally,
away
from
prime
ministry
like
in
France,
more
like
in
 Russia.
 You
 have
 the
 whole
 power
 for
 him
 self
 and
 then
 you
 have
 a
 puppet
 as
 Prime
 minister
 who
 hasn't
any
rights.





CNC:
If
he
succeeds
to
do
this,
do
you
think
he
is
going
to
push
Turkey
more
towards
EU
or?





IE:
No,
I
don't
think
so.
I
don’t.
Because
he
is
acting..
Erdogan
he
was
very
willing
to
be
in
the
European
 Union
in
2002
to
I
would
say
2006/7
and
after
that
he
changed
be
because
of
the
policy
of
Sakozy
and
 Merkel.
And
he
said
"we
don't
have
any
chance
maybe
and
we
can
do
what
we
want"





CNC:
So
do
you
think
the
process
has
been
too
long?





IE:
The
process
is
too
long
and
now
he
has
other
main
goals
for
himself
and
for
Turkey

 


CNC:
So
do
you
believe
Turkey
has
been
treated
fairly
in
the
accession
process?






IE:
Absolutely
not.






CNC:
Were
they
promised
something
they
would
never
get?





IE:
 I
 think
 both
 sides
 are
 responsible
 for
 that.
 And
 I
 told
 them
 very
 often
 to
 my
 Turkish
 colleagues
 from
 the
 national
 parliament,
 I
 told
 them:
 "Have
 your
 or
 you
 Prime
 Minister
 signed
 the
 Ankara
 protocol?
Yes
or
no?"
And
they
say
yes,
but..
But
no
but,
I
said
to
them.
You
signed
that
and
you
have
 the
obligation
to
fulfill
it.
But
they
say
"Yeah,
but
we
made
at
remark
on
it
and
bla
bla
bla".
Remark
is
 okay,
but
the
fact
is
that
Cyprus
is
a
full
member
and
you
have
to
recognize
them
as
full
member.
And
I
 know
 this
 is
 not
 very
 popular
 and
 because
 of
 my
 Turkish
 name
 I
 can
 say
 something,
 which
 my
 colleague
 with
 another
 name
 cannot
 mention.
 And
 I
 try
 to
 do
 it.
 But
 I'm
 a
 total
 supporter
 of
 the
 membership
of
Turkey.
And
I'm
honest
and
I
don't
have
any
agenda
behind
that.
So
they
believe
me
 and
so
I
can
say
something
which
a
bit
critical
to
them.






CNC:
So
 you
 are
 not
 worried
 about
 the
 country
 having
 some
 Muslim
 political
 agenda?
 I'm
 thinking
 about...





IE:
No,
absolutely
not!
Because
even
the
religious
groups
in
Turkey
are
secularists.
They
don't
want
to
 have...
Turkey
is
not
Pakistan,
Turkey
not
Iran,
Turkey
is
not
Iraq.
Turkey
is
a
European
country
and
all
 the
people
are
Europeans.
And
they
say
"okay,
we
are
Muslims
but
we
don't
want
to
have
an
Islamic
 state".





In document ”Tyrkiet kan da godt blive medlem, men…” (Sider 98-105)