Appendix 2a
Timespan Content
1
2 0:00,0 - 0:55,7
I: Start the recording now, and I yeah, again I want to thank you for your time, to talk to me, and the introduction I gave you in the email was quite short, but I'm writing about urban freight transport, so everything that goes on in the urban space and I'm mostly interested in knowing more about the environment that logistics companies operate in, what kind of influences or "pressures" that they experience, and I contacted DTL because I would think that you have a general overview of the issues and the challenges and so that I can use that moving
forward when I talk to specific logistics companies for instance. So, just to start off, maybe you could just explain what DTL does and just shortly and also explain what your role is in the organization?
87 3 0:55,7 -
2:19,0
P1: DTL is a road haulier association we're around 2000 hauliers as members and for instance we also have local associations. Copenhagen hauliers association is a member of DTL, so a kind of umbrella organization for local groups of transport companies. So we have a lot of contact with hauliers and also specific in the area of city logistics. I'm Policy Affairs Manager and working with yeah, lobbying and dialogue with authorities including local authority in Copenhagen and especially concerning the city logistics and I'm also participating in a network formed by the municipality consisting of other organizations and also of specific companies, talking about what are the problems, what can we do, how can we move on with, get things working better when we are going to deliver or pick up goods and waste and things in the area of Copenhagen.
4 2:19,0 - 2:28,7
I: So, based on what you just said, what do you see as the biggest challenges for urban freight in Copenhagen?
5 2:28,7 - 3:21,6
P1: Lack of space, to go up, in the helicopter and there are lots of examples of this.
It's difficult to park without getting a fine, so and, access in general to the shops, and the pavements and the yeah, many many problems to get the goods to the customer in time. And traffic safety is of course an issue. Biking, because of all the pedestrians and bikes going around at the same time as it's possible for the trucks to go in, so it's both time and space we're talking about. And congestion in general.
6 3:21,6 - 3:54,4
I: So, who would you say are the main players in this sector? You mention the government, and, are there any other, do you see any input from citizens for instance in terms of access to the streets or complaints about the space that you've mentioned for instance, yeah, just the regular person in the... in Copenhagen influencing the space?
7 3:54,4 - 4:38,5
P1: Yes, the citizens are of course very important, they elect the mayor, and the mayor is, in Copenhagen the mayor, they have several mayors, but there's one for, heading technique and environment, and he's very listening very carefully to the citizens and especially when it goes to environment and traffic safety and biking and noise. Noise is very specific problem where just one citizen can make a complaint to the municipality and things can change (snaps) like this.
8 4:38,5 - 4:41,1
I: Ok, so they actually have a lot of power.
9 4:41,1 - 5:50,8
P1: Certainly, both in some cases very directly, one citizen can have, or groups of citizens can have... We had an example some years ago where the municipality had a very good plan, we thought, of making so to speak, dedicated routes for trucks to go into the city, or through the city, or... so they would... the idea was to secure the trucks would not go everywhere but go up some specific routes (drawing with hands) that were designed for trucks, so to speak, and just for the last few meters go into the secondary streets. But those citizens living close or in
88 that special room for trucks they said no no, we don't have, want to have extra trucks here, they should go somewhere else, not in my backyard. And they seemed to be quite strong, and they completely smashed that plan up (laughs).
10 5:50,8 - 5:55,0
I: Even if it seemed like a good idea.
11 5:55,0 - 6:08,9
P1: Yeah, because then it was to be designed for trucks these routes in several ways, and it should be attractive to take that route instead of many other routes.
12 6:08,9 - 6:10,2
I: Yeah, and it would be more efficient.
13 6:10,2 - 6:42,6
P1: More efficient and it would have... yeah, better flow and less noise other places in town. But it failed. It's yeah, you may know the pareto optimum... if just one is less, or is having some (inaudiable), then it won't gain anything. That's life.
14 6:42,6 - 6:59,6
I: Would you say that they interact mostly with the government, or is there any interaction between citizens and directly with the logistics companies, or are there too many individual parties there?
15 6:59,6 - 7:51,5
P1: (Thinking) So we have, there are a lot with... not with, so much with directly with citizens but with for example the associations of bikers or ecological associations of different kinds. So that's who we have contact with. The... Our members, I really don't know how much contact they have directly with citizens but I gather they do from time to time, if a citizen is annoyed by something, I think they would call the company or post on facebook or whatever. I think so.
16 7:51,5 - 8:14,4
I: But you mention the goods network and city logistics, and if we talk about the goods network first, you mentioned that there are a lot of actors, the government, or municipality, and some other organizations. What would you say is the benefit of being in such a network?
17 8:14,4 - 9:05,0
P1: Well it is dialogue and that may lead to... we can find some solutions, small solutions maybe bigger solutions and in the long run we can avoid stupid solutions and some quick fixes that someone thinks should be a good idea, then we have this ongoing dialogue with the (embedsfolk) civil servants, so they are the ones to advise the politicians and if they have the contact, we might avoid stupid
solutions. Or costly solutions.
18 9:05,0 - 9:29,4
I: Is it mostly a way for the logistics sector and the universities to influence the policy makers, or would you say that it's also a way for policy makers to kind of explain their ideas and why they do things like that, is there a power dynamic between the participants in the network?
19 9:29,4 - 10:07,0
P1: Yes, if I understand. It's clearly that the civil servants they are very focused of course on the politicians and I think they try to explain yes why are we doing what we're doing, what's the plan, what are we planning and what are our goals. But
89 they are certainly searching for good solutions too, and to avoid resistance, or try to make things work smoothly. And I think that's a good idea for all.
20 10:07,0 - 10:11,0
I: Has there been any initiatives like this in the past?
21 10:11,0 - 11:24,5
P1: Yes, yes there have. And it's a working a bit in maybe circles or in waves (making waves with hands). And it's depending on persons, on who's the mayor or different civil servants and maybe there's been a network for some years, it might get... the dynamics go out of it and you seem to not go any further, you can't...
then you may need a break and you have some new people and then it's, I'm one of the old guys then, sticking, but I think it's nice to have new people in and giving some new dynamics to the process. And there's new technology of course going in, so there are new possibilities popping up that we can use to put into getting better solutions. And of course we have Brussels too.
22 11:24,5 - 11:30,6
I: How big of an influence is the EU?
23 11:30,6 - 12:45,0
P1: I don't... Maybe not that direct in the city of Copenhagen, but indirect by pushing technologies and pushing developments, research and development. Yes, there's also EU money in fact in this network, indirectly because there is a bigger research project where this network is a small corner of putting knowledge for hopefully into the bigger research project. But of course the EU has no jurisdiction in Copenhagen or in Denmark when it comes to how are we going to plan the city and so on. Not directly but in regulations on vehicles and engines and, what's it called, fuelling for example. So it's more indirectly.
24 12:45,0 - 13:11,1
P1: Maybe best practice across Europe. Putting money into facilitating best practice approaches between cities. You might... CIVITAS I believe, that's a project that's been going on for many years. That kind of projects.
25 13:11,1 - 13:45,3
I: I have read a bit about Copenhagen and there are a lot of initiatives for sustainability and Copenhagen is very recognized internationally for its focus on environmental issues and sustainability and cutting down on CO2 emissions and things like that. How do you see that this affects urban freight, do you feel that urban freight is directly part of that type of planning, or is it something that is a bit on the side?
26 13:45,3 - 15:17,9
P1: I think it's quite directly connected. We had the environmental zones. We had environmental zones for trucks and buses in Copenhagen and that's many years ago, in fact that they were introduced. Trying to focus not on CO2 but on
particular (inaudiable) and nox. Pollution, yeah pollution. So that was quite costly for the business at that time. So we had a struggle at that time, to find out how tight should this regulation be or how many years would we have to yeah, to invest in new trucks or in particular filters. I think we found a good middle way, and so we could manage it as an industry. But it was tough. It was, we talked
90 about I think 2 billion DKK was the worst case scenario, and I think we ended up with half a billion DKK of industry costs, over a year or two.
27 15:17,9 - 15:42,7
I: I'm thinking that a lot of initiatives are a little bit reactive to what governments set forward, like regulations or policies and things like that. Are there anything that DTL does that, any initiatives, that are more proactive, that the government hasn't touched upon yet?
28 15:42,7 - 18:27,7
P1: We have just sent a letter to the government responding to an EU directive, no an EU (thinking) communication of course, and a plan, action plan too. And I think we have quite a lot of proactive things we do and we want to do, or have the government to help us to be able to do. And if we start with the micro perspective, directly to our members, we were going to launch, and we have launched for years regularly, advise how to lower CO2 by very very practical solutions. And we had, it's back in 2009 in fact, we had a catalogue of 49 ways to lower CO2 emissions.
And we re-... what's it called, we repeated this campaign so to speak in (20)12 where we got, every week we launched an advice, so how to do... and we, it was many of the same advices as in (20)09 but some new too. How to lower CO2 _and_ earn money. that's the good one, if you can do that. That's often very clear, if you, of course if you save fuel or electricity, you use.. you save money and CO2.
So it's ok. In a couple of weeks we are going to launch a handbook how to get this environmental and climate work and policy integrated into your business. So it's very low-key and pragmatic but it can lead to ISO4001, 14001, if they want to go all the way but it's more low-key to try to reach more companies and small-and-medium-sized companies too.
29 18:27,7 - 18:49,6
I: Yeah, because I would imagine that for some companies this is of course something that they might advertise, like the big ones, that they're sustainable CO2 low emissions and things like that, but for others who may have older vehicles then it's more just a problem that they need to get out of the way, in a way.
30 18:49,6 - 20:17,8
P1: But we do, we do this to get our members competitive also in the future, or now. Because, up to now it's mostly, still mostly public authorities, municipalities, buying transport that are asking for environmental or climate policy initiatives and plans and how are you going to improve every year. They are asking for that. Still, we don't see it very heavily from the private sector yet. But it's out there, it's in Sweden very heavily. But we are lacking, our private customers are lagging behind, but I think we are going to be ready to match customer demand. Not just from public side but from private side and of course from regulators, the city of
Copenhagen and EU regulation coming up, maybe also more directly in, yeah, who knows environmental zones of some kind... EU regulation might come up, I don't know, it might come up.
91 31 20:17,8 -
20:38,4
I: You also mentioned city logistics in your, could your describe, like what the difference between city logistics specifically and this goods network... If there is specific differences in what you do?
32 20:38,4 - 20:40,7
P1: Differences between...
33 20:40,7 - 20:47,1
I: City logistics and maybe urban freight if you perceive that there is a difference?
34 20:47,1 - 22:53,7
P1: (Thinking) I try always to say that city logistics is not just delivering packages to shops in the inner city, it's much more, there are many many other types of transport, that we have to take into account. Building and construction, craning, waste, so it's not just this... Many have this picture of, it's just delivering some packages into the city. It's frozen goods, it's refrigerated goods, it's dangerous goods. Yeah. Many, many different kinds of goods that you cannot just put to a terminal, mix around and then drive in. It's very complicated. And so you can't just have a quick fix and then everything is fine - it's very complicated. But of course you can choose, and you have to sometimes, to focus on, OK, what are we, we can't do... solve everything if we try to solve everything. So you sometimes have to focus. What can we do about delivery to the old city? What could we do about that? And then I always come back to, be careful of sub-optimizing... do you understand? (Thinking) Yes, sub-optimizing. There's a big risk of that if you focus very close on specific geographic...
35 22:53,7 - 22:59,5
I: So what would you say are the most important things to focus on right now?
36 22:59,5 - 24:03,9
P1: We made a list in fact (points to papers on the table) and that's why I just took it out. Because I think we got close to some important issues, and noise it pops very up, high up on the agenda. Because we would like to be able to spread out the distribution in time, and this is the always stopped by this question of noise. 7 o'clock, it's... it's a big issue. And it's connected to congestion and possibilities for parking, finding parking space and so on. And then I think loading zones could be, yeah it's maybe more a possibility of solution... it's a solution to parking problems.
Or one of the solutions.
37 24:03,9 - 24:11,8
I: What would that entail, parking... loading zones? Where, for instance?
38 24:11,8 - 29:16,5
P1: That's a big questions too, and we're trying to get a process on pointing out in the streets where should they be. We have tried that years ago, I think we had 10 or 20 loading places maybe more than zones, it's just 20 meters, where there's a sign that says, from 7 to 11 this parking space is only for loading and unloading from trucks or vans. And we're in dialogue now, trying to find where should they be, and how should it be done, and it's not that easy. Because I really don't know it, see we're going to the companies and even going to the drivers asking them where should it be and maybe we get 1000 different opinions on where they should be and how are we going to decide in the end. I think it's going to be difficult, but we're trying to do it. Traffic safety is of course very important. So we
92 of course support whatever can be done to secure where trucks and bikers and pedestrians are crossing each other, wherever it might be. So if it's possible to avoid right turns by making clever infrastructure and clever traffic lights and it's...
we support that very much. And I think the city of Copenhagen has been quite active trying to build the crossings in clever ways. I think that's a good idea. Then, one thing we're very... very much in favor of is the green lights waves. They have a very interesting project. That there are different zones in Copenhagen areas that's Ring 2 in the city and we think it's a good idea, they try to make a good flow trucks in that zone. Using intelligent traffic systems and I think it's a very interesting project, I don't quite remember what it's called, but you might know it... no? It's called... ECO something. But it's the city of Copenhagen has upgraded their, all their traffic lights so you can communicate directly between a truck and the lights.
I's very clever so if sometimes if the traffic light can sense or register there's a truck coming and it can give maybe 1-2-3 seconds more green light, and he's told just keep up the speed of 40 or 50 kilometers you will have green lights, or it says please go down to 30 kilometers per hour and it will be green when you reach the traffic light. I think it's genius. But of course, it's on those who are going in the other direction, they will... so it's always a trade-off. And we're trying, together with the consultant and the city to find out when is the important, when and where is the important places where we would like to have some more green?
And of course, the crossing traffic will have a bit more red, but in other times of the day they will have more green, trying to trade when do we need... Because the city of Copenhagen they want in fact they want the vans and the trucks quick in and quick out. How can we do that in an intelligent way, without disturbing too much? And then we're back to the problem: Everybody is going to the city between 7 and 9. How can we open this window more, somewhat more?
39 29:16,5 - 31:31,4
P1: So that's yeah (looking at papers). Yes, we have a very big issue with all the constructions going on in the city all the time. The metro project, but many, many other projects. The city of Copenhagen is building a, yeah what's that called (fjernvarme)... Heating. They're going to have warm water in pipes all over the city to heating for here and there and everywhere. And it demands lots of digging, all the time, everywhere. And sometimes you think, oh now they're finished in the streets, but then there's another thing going to be fixed. Internet connections or whatever. And sometimes it's not very well coordinated and sometimes it takes too long. There are delays and so on. And this is very annoying for everyone.
Everybody. Citizens, our members, bikers, everybody. So... But there's also happening things even at the parliament, they have given more opportunities to try to, more opportunities for the municipalities to do something about it. To make better planning, to make fines, for construction companies not finishing their jobs as planned or as agreed. So they of course do not like it that much, the construction companies but we think it's necessary and a good idea.
40 31:31,4 - 32:03,8
I: I have a few more questions, I'm just curious, now that there's so many new, maybe not new challenges, but more complex challenges for urban freight, would
93 you say that there's some skills that employees in the transport sector need to have as opposed to before, has that changed?
41 32:03,8 - 33:28,6
P1: Especially when it comes to traffic safety yes. I think we have very, very much focus on campaigning and education. And fortunately with very good results - the number of fatal accidents has gone down over a ten year period, and in fact, are in a very very small scale now. So it can pop up again because we're talking on national basis 1-2-3-4 killed in a year. 10-15 years ago we were above 10, but in fact it's very small figures when you're talking statistics, but if you make this curve (shows) over 20 years you can see a clear picture. And we... But just one, just two in a year, or four it's very bad situation because one is too much. And 4 might be the double as the year before because there was only 2. It's bad but it's, we're struggling for going to 0 simply. And we're close in fact but not there.
42 33:28,6 - 33:42,4
I: But there are so many factors...
43 33:42,4 - 36:45,5
P1: So many factors... But when it comes to eco-driving, it's of course also very important, and it's part of education. And part of our advice when we campaign towards our members. Maybe I would, just make you... Fueling is of course very important when it comes to climate change and there we have the municipality of Copenhagen is active when it comes to biogas but it's, then you need another engine, another truck and it's very costly. And both the, especially the trucks are very costly, and this is a show-stopper simply. If it's too costly, it can't work in the private market, simply. And there we have a problem not just with biogas we also have it when it comes to biodiesel, liquid fuel, it's expensive and it's difficult to get into the Danish market. They do have much more biofuel in Sweden, because they have another tax policy simply. But it's a price, it's costly for the state then, because they will lose this fuel duty too, and that's a show-stopper too, because when you go to the ministry of Finance, in Denmark which is the strongest ministry of all, they say we need financing for everything. And we can't spare this fueling taxation. And then we say, we can't fuel our trucks with this, we can't go...
Maybe some of our members do go to Sweden and fuel there, but you can't do it if you are doing city logistics in Copenhagen you can't take... it's costly to go to Sweden in many ways. Time, kilometers, bridge, crossing the bridge. So then you have to make some kind of system where you make city logistics in the whole Oresund region maybe. I don't know if some do that. Then it's going to be quite complicated and try to...But it might be, of course, might be a business case.
44 36:45,5 - 37:17,7
I: Yes I actually also read that in addition to this focus on sustainability, there is an initiative called 'Greater Copenhagen' where Copenhagen is supposed to be this big metropole. So I, it's a bit of a paradox, in a way that there's this focus on sustainability and wanting to get the CO2 emissions down and at the same time encouraging more transportation maybe to the city, in way.
45 37:17,7 - 37:42,2
P1: Yes, more business and activity, is very difficult to have without transport. Still.
Even much as it is about apps and internet. There are still goods to be traveled